[Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi geoserver devs,

I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver (and
geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
trunk-on-trunk commits...
I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
trunk-on-trunk excercition?

Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

Cheers,
Vincent.

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more time… actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, Vincent Schut <schut@anonymised.com> wrote:

Hi geoserver devs,

I’m starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver (and
geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
trunk-on-trunk commits…
I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
2.3.x, aren’t they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
trunk-on-trunk excercition?

Confusion confusion… please enlighten me.

Cheers,
Vincent.


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Eng. Alessio Fabiani
Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it


Hi Alessio and Simone,
thanks for the info. I'll stay on gt-2.3.x and revert to gs-1.5.x then
(I was on trunk, because that once was 1.5.x, but it growed to be 1.6.x
so now I have to revert to the branch instead of trunk).
Please let us know when it makes sense (from a raster/WCS point of
view) to switch to trunk.

Cheers,
Vincent.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:32:03 +0100
"Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com> wrote:

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer
1.5.x and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, Vincent Schut <schut@anonymised.com> wrote:
>
> Hi geoserver devs,
>
> I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver
> (and geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
> trunk-on-trunk commits...
> I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
> branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
> added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around?
> As for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take
> place on 2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to
> trunk for the trunk-on-trunk excercition?
>
> Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.
>
> Cheers,
> Vincent.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
> security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to
> make your job easier.
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
> Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________ Geoserver-devel
> mailing list Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel
>

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk? I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com <mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver (and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    security?
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    job easier.
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    Geronimo
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    <http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642&gt;
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--
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Alessio Fabiani
Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

--------------------------------------------------------- !DSPAM:1004,45d03594192331971556521!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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The Open Planning Project
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Ciao Justin,
I more or less another day of work to be done, but I am not sure to be able to do all that before the end of the week due to other
things I have to do.

Anyway, isn't it a bit too early for a beta of 1.6? And what about the performance problem aaime ran into? I am afraid that we might end up with
a lot of emails from users complaining about performance getting worse instead of better as a new release would make people expect.
Morevoer given the amount of new things we pushed into 1.5 isn't it not that wise to start with a 1.6 release even before 1,5 is out?

I know everyone has its own deadlines and I do not want to bohter, but I am afraid we may give the impression tha we are just throwing pieces
out there as they seem to be ready, but while in fact they are not *that* tested.
Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net" <geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut" <schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver (and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
    security?
    Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your
    job easier.
    Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
    Geronimo

http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642

<http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642&gt;
    _______________________________________________
    Geoserver-devel mailing list
    Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
    <mailto:Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
    https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Alessio Fabiani
Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

--------------------------------------------------------- !DSPAM:1004,45d03594192331971556521!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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jdeolive@anonymised.com
The Open Planning Project
http://topp.openplans.org

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier.
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
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_______________________________________________
Geoserver-devel mailing list
Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel

  > Anyway, isn't it a bit too early for a beta of 1.6? And what about the

performance problem aaime ran into? I am afraid that we might end up with
a lot of emails from users complaining about performance getting worse instead of better as a new release would make people expect.
Morevoer given the amount of new things we pushed into 1.5 isn't it not that wise to start with a 1.6 release even before 1,5 is out?

I know everyone has its own deadlines and I do not want to bohter, but I am afraid we may give the impression tha we are just throwing pieces
out there as they seem to be ready, but while in fact they are not *that* tested.

That's why we call it a beta. If users complain about performance we tell them to use a more stable version, at the very least a release candidate, if not a fully stable version. Release early and often is the open source philosophy, we can do lots of testing before we go RC.... But there's good work on trunk which should see more users.

Chris

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net" <geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut" <schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver (and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
    security?
    Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your
    job easier.
    Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
    Geronimo

http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642

<http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642&gt;
    _______________________________________________
    Geoserver-devel mailing list
    Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
    <mailto:Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
    https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Alessio Fabiani
Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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!DSPAM:1004,45d03594192331971556521!

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--
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jdeolive@anonymised.com
The Open Planning Project
http://topp.openplans.org

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Chris Holmes
The Open Planning Project
http://topp.openplans.org

Simone wrote:

Ciao Justin,

Anyway, isn't it a bit too early for a beta of 1.6? And what about the performance problem aaime ran into? I am afraid that we might end up with
a lot of emails from users complaining about performance getting worse instead of better as a new release would make people expect.
Morevoer given the amount of new things we pushed into 1.5 isn't it not that wise to start with a 1.6 release even before 1,5 is out?

I agree, it might be a bit premature. But as long as the thing is tagged with beta I don't think we have to worry too much about many people jumping on its band wagon.

I know everyone has its own deadlines and I do not want to bohter, but I am afraid we may give the impression tha we are just throwing pieces
out there as they seem to be ready, but while in fact they are not *that* tested.

Fair enough... if certain things need more testing then sure. But we need a way to move forward so we can continue to release. Throwing out beta releases to gather some bug reports might not be a bad way to do that.

So I am getting the impression that wcs / coverage support is drastically different on 1.5.x and trunk? Or is the concern just the things that will pop up on trunk ( like property access )?

Regardless, I will bring this up at our next IRC meeting so we can discuss where things are.

-Justin

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net" <geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut" <schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver (and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
    security?
    Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your
    job easier.
    Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
    Geronimo

http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642

<http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642&gt;

    _______________________________________________
    Geoserver-devel mailing list
    Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
    <mailto:Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
    https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Alessio Fabiani
Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier.
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
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!DSPAM:1004,45d03594192331971556521!

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--
Justin Deoliveira
jdeolive@anonymised.com
The Open Planning Project
http://topp.openplans.org

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier.
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
_______________________________________________
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Justin Deoliveira
jdeolive@anonymised.com
The Open Planning Project
http://topp.openplans.org

> Anyway, isn't it a bit too early for a beta of 1.6? And what about the

performance problem aaime ran into? I am afraid that we might end up with
a lot of emails from users complaining about performance getting worse
instead of better as a new release would make people expect.
Morevoer given the amount of new things we pushed into 1.5 isn't it not that
wise to start with a 1.6 release even before 1,5 is out?

I know everyone has its own deadlines and I do not want to bohter, but I am
afraid we may give the impression tha we are just throwing pieces
out there as they seem to be ready, but while in fact they are not *that*
tested.

That's why we call it a beta. If users complain about performance we
tell them to use a more stable version, at the very least a release
candidate, if not a fully stable version. Release early and often is
the open source philosophy, we can do lots of testing before we go
RC....

I am just afraid that shortening this much the time to go to beta
may increase the number of open issues with respect to the number of
issues we can handle. In the end we are not a big company with N (where N > big :slight_smile: )developers
working on GeoServer

I don't want to bother with this performance thing, but this issue
like as other issue with 1.5 should have not reached users.

My (short) experience says what follows:

1>Too many issues open means no time to do actual development moreover it
usually leads to quick hack which may introduce more problems than they fix
2>Too many issues open means users waiting in line for seeing them fixed. And users get bored
of waiting pretty quicklu
3>Too many issues open means impression of instability and I think this can scare users away from us.
4>Too many issue open means,... oh well, I forgot, I better work on aligning gt 2.3.x to trunk instead
of bothering people :-).

Ciao,
Simone.

But there's good work on trunk which should see more users.

Chris

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net"
<geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut"
<schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver
(and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------

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Simone wrote:

I am just afraid that shortening this much the time to go to beta
may increase the number of open issues with respect to the number of
issues we can handle. In the end we are not a big company with N (where N > big :slight_smile: )developers
working on GeoServer

Well you do have other resources at your disposal ( ie me :slight_smile: ). If we are having problems keeping up with the work load it is probably in our best interest to get more developers trained and familiar with the coverage stuff.

I don't want to bother with this performance thing, but this issue
like as other issue with 1.5 should have not reached users.

My (short) experience says what follows:

1>Too many issues open means no time to do actual development moreover it
usually leads to quick hack which may introduce more problems than they fix
2>Too many issues open means users waiting in line for seeing them fixed. And users get bored
of waiting pretty quicklu
3>Too many issues open means impression of instability and I think this can scare users away from us.
4>Too many issue open means,... oh well, I forgot, I better work on aligning gt 2.3.x to trunk instead
of bothering people :-).

Fair enough, but I like the idea of "release early release often". And as long as releases get better and not worse (within a particular development branch ) i think that is the main thing to ensure we look "stable".

I would argue that getting out releases early and often would result in users getting their bugs fixed faster, instead of a user waiting on a particular bug fix, but also waiting on us to fix ever single other bug that is open.

Ciao,
Simone.

But there's good work on trunk which should see more users.

Chris

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net"
<geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut"
<schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver
(and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
    security?
    Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your
    job easier.
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--
-------------------------------------------------------
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Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Justin Deoliveira ha scritto:

I would argue that getting out releases early and often would result in users getting their bugs fixed faster, instead of a user waiting on a particular bug fix, but also waiting on us to fix ever single other bug that is open.

Well, I guess it depends on the bug? If it's new, it gets caught up faster and thus fixed faster, if it's old, it won't probably be fixed unless we devote special time to it: if we're spending time doing new
features, we're not spending time fixing old bugs...

Cheers
Andrae

My 2c as an interested user who's waiting for new functionality to try and break (I'm liking the coverages, but still waiting for complex features!) is that I'd like to see releases early so I can test out new features, even if it is buggy (it saves me having to get the whole of geoserver and geotools from svn and build my own snapshots).

How about calling just it an alpha instead of a beta? No-one expects alphas to be usable :wink:

Cheers,

Ed

I think we should aim to support a trunk build, with at best "alpha" status, without a release cycle, and only release a branch (1.6 in this case) when there is a specfic user community that is willing and able to undetake some testing of something only on that branch.

IMHO The initial release(s) should be "alpha", with a clear notice about the testing process and goals - people understand this is for brave souls. Simone is right - people expect beta to be pretty close to usable.

So, I'd suggest release a 1.6 alpha if you can identify the testing community and the testing goals, and ASAP after that! Maybe this is clear in someone's head, but from a PSC perspective I dont feel the case has been made succinctly.

Rob A

Simone wrote:

  

> Anyway, isn't it a bit too early for a beta of 1.6? And what about the
    

performance problem aaime ran into? I am afraid that we might end up with
a lot of emails from users complaining about performance getting worse
instead of better as a new release would make people expect.
Morevoer given the amount of new things we pushed into 1.5 isn't it not that
wise to start with a 1.6 release even before 1,5 is out?

I know everyone has its own deadlines and I do not want to bohter, but I am
afraid we may give the impression tha we are just throwing pieces
out there as they seem to be ready, but while in fact they are not *that*
tested.
      

That's why we call it a beta. If users complain about performance we
tell them to use a more stable version, at the very least a release
candidate, if not a fully stable version. Release early and often is
the open source philosophy, we can do lots of testing before we go
RC....
    
I am just afraid that shortening this much the time to go to beta
may increase the number of open issues with respect to the number of
issues we can handle. In the end we are not a big company with N (where N > big :slight_smile: )developers
working on GeoServer

I don't want to bother with this performance thing, but this issue
like as other issue with 1.5 should have not reached users.

My (short) experience says what follows:

1>Too many issues open means no time to do actual development moreover it
usually leads to quick hack which may introduce more problems than they fix
2>Too many issues open means users waiting in line for seeing them fixed. And users get bored
of waiting pretty quicklu
3>Too many issues open means impression of instability and I think this can scare users away from us.
4>Too many issue open means,... oh well, I forgot, I better work on aligning gt 2.3.x to trunk instead
of bothering people :-).

Ciao,
Simone.

But there's good work on trunk which should see more users.

Chris

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net"
<geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut"
<schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:
        

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver
(and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
    security?
    Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your
    job easier.
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    Geronimo

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<http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642&gt;
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--
-------------------------------------------------------
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Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Hi Rob,

I agree and would definitley be willing to release it as an alpha.

Simone: Would marking it as alpha address your concerns?

-Justin

Rob Atkinson wrote:

I think we should aim to support a trunk build, with at best "alpha" status, without a release cycle, and only release a branch (1.6 in this case) when there is a specfic user community that is willing and able to undetake some testing of something only on that branch.

IMHO The initial release(s) should be "alpha", with a clear notice about the testing process and goals - people understand this is for brave souls. Simone is right - people expect beta to be pretty close to usable.

So, I'd suggest release a 1.6 alpha if you can identify the testing community and the testing goals, and ASAP after that! Maybe this is clear in someone's head, but from a PSC perspective I dont feel the case has been made succinctly.

Rob A

Simone wrote:

> Anyway, isn't it a bit too early for a beta of 1.6? And what about the
   

performance problem aaime ran into? I am afraid that we might end up with
a lot of emails from users complaining about performance getting worse
instead of better as a new release would make people expect.
Morevoer given the amount of new things we pushed into 1.5 isn't it not that
wise to start with a 1.6 release even before 1,5 is out?

I know everyone has its own deadlines and I do not want to bohter, but I am
afraid we may give the impression tha we are just throwing pieces
out there as they seem to be ready, but while in fact they are not *that*
tested.
      

That's why we call it a beta. If users complain about performance we
tell them to use a more stable version, at the very least a release
candidate, if not a fully stable version. Release early and often is
the open source philosophy, we can do lots of testing before we go
RC....
    
I am just afraid that shortening this much the time to go to beta
may increase the number of open issues with respect to the number of
issues we can handle. In the end we are not a big company with N (where N > big :slight_smile: )developers
working on GeoServer

I don't want to bother with this performance thing, but this issue
like as other issue with 1.5 should have not reached users.

My (short) experience says what follows:

1>Too many issues open means no time to do actual development moreover it
usually leads to quick hack which may introduce more problems than they fix
2>Too many issues open means users waiting in line for seeing them fixed. And users get bored
of waiting pretty quicklu
3>Too many issues open means impression of instability and I think this can scare users away from us.
4>Too many issue open means,... oh well, I forgot, I better work on aligning gt 2.3.x to trunk instead
of bothering people :-).

Ciao,
Simone.

But there's good work on trunk which should see more users.

Chris

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net"
<geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut"
<schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:
       

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver
(and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
    security?
    Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your
    job easier.
    Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
    Geronimo

http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642

<http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642&gt;

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--
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Alessio Fabiani
Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Identifying a 'user community' beforehand to do specific testing prior to a release goes against many of the tenets of open source, in my humble opinion. The whole point is that you put it out there and potential testers find you, instead of the reverse. This has always worked in the past, and I see no reason it won't continue to work.

Additionally, in this case there has already been a testing community, process and goals which were met. 1.6 is the output of CITE, which has certified all the code written as WFS 1.1 compliant. It's additionally passing all WMS, WCS and WFS 1.0 CITE tests. And Bart has already been testing the first 1.6 alpha and has given good feedback on it.

In general I wouldn't see a need for an 'alpha' release unless we were rewriting most everything, and failing a majority of CITE tests. GeoServer stays pretty stable, and the vast majority of the code should continue to work. The core changes very little between each point release, unlike some other project we might work with. Indeed the only thing that is messing us up in this instance is GeoTools, the fact that trunk there is not as stable and up to date as people have been promising it would be. This is the only reason I'd agree to call this alpha. In general a GeoServer trunk release should be good enough to call beta, except for instability during the process of something coming in from a branch.

Chris

Rob Atkinson wrote:

I think we should aim to support a trunk build, with at best "alpha" status, without a release cycle, and only release a branch (1.6 in this case) when there is a specfic user community that is willing and able to undetake some testing of something only on that branch.

IMHO The initial release(s) should be "alpha", with a clear notice about the testing process and goals - people understand this is for brave souls. Simone is right - people expect beta to be pretty close to usable.

So, I'd suggest release a 1.6 alpha if you can identify the testing community and the testing goals, and ASAP after that! Maybe this is clear in someone's head, but from a PSC perspective I dont feel the case has been made succinctly.

Rob A

Simone wrote:

> Anyway, isn't it a bit too early for a beta of 1.6? And what about the
   

performance problem aaime ran into? I am afraid that we might end up with
a lot of emails from users complaining about performance getting worse
instead of better as a new release would make people expect.
Morevoer given the amount of new things we pushed into 1.5 isn't it not that
wise to start with a 1.6 release even before 1,5 is out?

I know everyone has its own deadlines and I do not want to bohter, but I am
afraid we may give the impression tha we are just throwing pieces
out there as they seem to be ready, but while in fact they are not *that*
tested.
      

That's why we call it a beta. If users complain about performance we
tell them to use a more stable version, at the very least a release
candidate, if not a fully stable version. Release early and often is
the open source philosophy, we can do lots of testing before we go
RC....
    
I am just afraid that shortening this much the time to go to beta
may increase the number of open issues with respect to the number of
issues we can handle. In the end we are not a big company with N (where N > big :slight_smile: )developers
working on GeoServer

I don't want to bother with this performance thing, but this issue
like as other issue with 1.5 should have not reached users.

My (short) experience says what follows:

1>Too many issues open means no time to do actual development moreover it
usually leads to quick hack which may introduce more problems than they fix
2>Too many issues open means users waiting in line for seeing them fixed. And users get bored
of waiting pretty quicklu
3>Too many issues open means impression of instability and I think this can scare users away from us.
4>Too many issue open means,... oh well, I forgot, I better work on aligning gt 2.3.x to trunk instead
of bothering people :-).

Ciao,
Simone.

But there's good work on trunk which should see more users.

Chris

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net"
<geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut"
<schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:
       

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver
(and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

---------------------------------------------------------

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Chris Holmes wrote:

Identifying a 'user community' beforehand to do specific testing prior to a release goes against many of the tenets of open source, in my humble opinion. The whole point is that you put it out there and potential testers find you, instead of the reverse. This has always worked in the past, and I see no reason it won't continue to work.

see next para...

Additionally, in this case there has already been a testing community, process and goals which were met. 1.6 is the output of CITE, which has certified all the code written as WFS 1.1 compliant. It's additionally passing all WMS, WCS and WFS 1.0 CITE tests. And Bart has already been testing the first 1.6 alpha and has given good feedback on it.

see last para (he he)

Q.E.D.

Anyway, I think the case is made to release a 1.6 alpha, on these criteria. (I just think we need to make the case to have meaningful discussions)

IMHO The roadmap should allow interested users to _plan_ to get involved in testing, rather than the current habit of springing it as a suprise with a very short cycle.

In general I wouldn't see a need for an 'alpha' release unless we were rewriting most everything, and failing a majority of CITE tests. GeoServer stays pretty stable, and the vast majority of the code should continue to work. The core changes very little between each point release, unlike some other project we might work with. Indeed the only thing that is messing us up in this instance is GeoTools, the fact that trunk there is not as stable and up to date as people have been promising it would be. This is the only reason I'd agree to call this alpha. In general a GeoServer trunk release should be good enough to call beta, except for instability during the process of something coming in from a branch.

which seems to be the most common state I've observed over the last few years.

Chris

Rob Atkinson wrote:

I think we should aim to support a trunk build, with at best "alpha" status, without a release cycle, and only release a branch (1.6 in this case) when there is a specfic user community that is willing and able to undetake some testing of something only on that branch.

IMHO The initial release(s) should be "alpha", with a clear notice about the testing process and goals - people understand this is for brave souls. Simone is right - people expect beta to be pretty close to usable.

So, I'd suggest release a 1.6 alpha if you can identify the testing community and the testing goals, and ASAP after that! Maybe this is clear in someone's head, but from a PSC perspective I dont feel the case has been made succinctly.

Rob A

Simone wrote:

> Anyway, isn't it a bit too early for a beta of 1.6? And what about the
  

performance problem aaime ran into? I am afraid that we might end up with
a lot of emails from users complaining about performance getting worse
instead of better as a new release would make people expect.
Morevoer given the amount of new things we pushed into 1.5 isn't it not that
wise to start with a 1.6 release even before 1,5 is out?

I know everyone has its own deadlines and I do not want to bohter, but I am
afraid we may give the impression tha we are just throwing pieces
out there as they seem to be ready, but while in fact they are not *that*
tested.
      

That's why we call it a beta. If users complain about performance we
tell them to use a more stable version, at the very least a release
candidate, if not a fully stable version. Release early and often is
the open source philosophy, we can do lots of testing before we go
RC....
    
I am just afraid that shortening this much the time to go to beta
may increase the number of open issues with respect to the number of
issues we can handle. In the end we are not a big company with N (where N > big :slight_smile: )developers
working on GeoServer

I don't want to bother with this performance thing, but this issue
like as other issue with 1.5 should have not reached users.

My (short) experience says what follows:

1>Too many issues open means no time to do actual development moreover it
usually leads to quick hack which may introduce more problems than they fix
2>Too many issues open means users waiting in line for seeing them fixed. And users get bored
of waiting pretty quicklu
3>Too many issues open means impression of instability and I think this can scare users away from us.
4>Too many issue open means,... oh well, I forgot, I better work on aligning gt 2.3.x to trunk instead
of bothering people :-).

Ciao,
Simone.

But there's good work on trunk which should see more users.

Chris

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini

President/CEO GeoSolutions
http://www.geo-solutions.it
Via Carignoni 51
550141 Camaiore (LU)
Italy
Mobile: +39 333 81 28928
-------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Deoliveira" <jdeolive@anonymised.com>
To: "Alessio Fabiani" <alessio.fabiani@anonymised.com>
Cc: "geoserver-devel @ lists. sourceforge. net"
<geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Vincent Schut"
<schut@anonymised.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Geoserver-devel] branch or trunk for best raster support?

Hi Alessio,

Do you have any idea of when all the changes will be available on trunk?
I was hoping to throw out a 1.6.0 beta release perhaps sometime this
week. Do you think what is on trunk is ready for a beta?

-Justin

Alessio Fabiani wrote:
      

Hi Vincent,
we are moving raster improvements to trunk, but we need a little more
time... actually the best branch for raster support is GeoServer 1.5.x
and GeoTools 2.3.x.

On 2/12/07, *Vincent Schut* <schut@anonymised.com
<mailto:schut@anonymised.com>> wrote:

    Hi geoserver devs,

    I'm starting to feel a bit confused about what branch of geoserver
(and
    geotools) to use for optimal raster support, with all these
    trunk-on-trunk commits...
    I /think/ it shoud be geoserver-1.5.x branch against geotools-2.3.x
    branch, but I just want to be sure. Do the raster improvements get
    added to trunk, then backported to 1.5.x, or the other way around? As
    for geotools, as far as I know all raster improvements take place on
    2.3.x, aren't they? Did these also got forwar-ported to trunk for the
    trunk-on-trunk excercition?

    Confusion confusion... please enlighten me.

    Cheers,
    Vincent.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
    security?
    Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your
    job easier.
    Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
    Geronimo

http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642

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--
-------------------------------------------------------
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Vice President/CTO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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A clarification

  In general a GeoServer trunk release should be good enough to call beta, except for instability during the process of something coming in from a branch.
    

which seems to be the most common state I've observed over the last few years.
  

This comment applies purely to trunk, not each stable release, which are undoubtedly getting better and better. Its certainly a valid goal to aim at trunk being good enough for beta release. From my observation we're just finding it a lot of effort porting forward fixes and performance tuning going on in stable branches.

If we follow Chris's logic that the trunk is good enough for a beta, then hopefully we can move this stabilising effort to trunk instead of branches, and only back port as the exception. I guess the problem is that users find issues on stable branches - though in most products they expect to wait for the next release for a fix, and occasionally get a patch for a current release. Maybe we can make our lives easier by toning down expectations of branch maintenance a notch, in favour of optimising stability of the trunk.

Still, a beta tends to imply a focus of testing effort. It doesnt feel right to release a stable branch as a beta and the trunk too. Perhaps we should release a beta from trunk when the last release hits final? And alphas up until then ?

Rob A

If we follow Chris's logic that the trunk is good enough for a beta, then hopefully we can move this stabilising effort to trunk instead of branches, and only back port as the exception. I guess the problem is that users find issues on stable branches - though in most products they expect to wait for the next release for a fix, and occasionally get a patch for a current release. Maybe we can make our lives easier by toning down expectations of branch maintenance a notch, in favour of optimising stability of the trunk.

This has always been the policy of GeoServer. Not so on GeoTools. But on GeoServer trunk has always received the bulk of the stabilizing effort. Stable branches have tended to not go off of trunk until RC's at the earliest, often waiting for the .0 release. Mostly because it's such a pain to maintain two at once. The trunk of 1.4.x became a stable branch when 1.4.0 to RC status. Trunk of 1.3.x became a stable branch after 1.3.2 went out. Trunk for 1.2.x became a stable branch after 1.2.3 went out. 1.1.x was made right before 1.1.1.

1.5.x was made a stable branch in the beginning of December, and I was under the impression that we were only several weeks away from 1.5.0. This has obviously not been the case. And the timings have been screwed up because Justin's work was complete and needed to come online.

Still, a beta tends to imply a focus of testing effort. It doesnt feel right to release a stable branch as a beta and the trunk too. Perhaps we should release a beta from trunk when the last release hits final? And alphas up until then ?

Stable branch just hit release candidate. So it feels right to make a beta for me. I agree it didn't feel right before then. `I concede we shouldn't go beta right now, since GeoTools changes aren't working right on their trunk. But from a GeoServer perspective it really should be a beta - it's pretty much all the same code in 1.5.0, with improvements for WFS and dispatching.

To some extent this is a matter of semantics, beta and alpha only mean anything within a certain scope. In GeoServer, however, alpha has only been used twice since 1.0, and both times meant that only a programmer could handle them. To me 'beta' means that a user will be able to successfully install it, and the majority of the code _should_ be working, it's worked for programmers, but we make no promises. We put betas out in the hope of getting feedback. I believe this is pretty standard across other open source projects. In light of this I don't think it makes sense to switch our policy to start calling these alphas. If people would like I can write up a document summarizing this.

Chris

Rob A

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Rob Atkinson ha scritto:

If we follow Chris's logic that the trunk is good enough for a beta, then hopefully we can move this stabilising effort to trunk instead of branches, and only back port as the exception. I guess the problem is that users find issues on stable branches - though in most products they expect to wait for the next release for a fix, and occasionally get a patch for a current release.

In most serious products you expect a bug fix release or a service pack
or some kind.
Asking people using XP to wait for Vista for a bug fix they need is hilarious at best. People using Geoserver 1.4.0 and not needed raster support should not have to upgrade to 1.5.0 and face the new bugs introduced by changes.
That's my point of view at least, as a user developing something on top
of Geoserver I would not be happy to become a tester for the new release just because I spotted an issue in the old one.

Just my 2 cents.
Cheers
Andrea