[Geoserver-devel] Ranting about non Java language usage in core

Chris holmes wrote:

Out of curiosity, why is this so bad? I mean it complies to pure java bytecode, could just be thought of an
additional library, like the xml stuff we do. It’ll interoperate on any platform, which to me was the big
downside in bringing in other languages.

There is a variety of issues why I believe we should be firm about never including another JVM language in core (unless… read towards the end).

The nice thing about having scripting languages as an extension is that everybody can pick their preferred scripting language and go down writing their cool extension. Someone goes with Jython, another one has a preference for Scale, someone else is a Groovy type, the other guy over there is a JRuby kind of person, and yet everybody is happily writing their own thing. Tomorrow someone comes and wants to use Ceylon, or Kotlin, or Clojure, and by using the JSR for scripting languages we can slot in those as well.
This is splendid… as long as we think in terms of custom extensions that are not shared with a larger community.

Now let’s ramp up a bit, and let’s say people start writing official extensions in non Java languages.
You just download them and add them to your GeoServer, everything is working, it’s all fine, right?
Nope, whilst it’s not too bad, it’s not fine either:

  • each scripting language comes with its own runtime library, which is often rather heavy (several megabytes) pushing on our already quite poor permgen situation. And then… what if I need two or three of these extensions, all needing their own different runtime? That just multiplies the problem
  • “polyglot” programmers are not the norm today, and even those that are polyglots have made choices,
    creating a partitioning of the potential programmer base in tiny pieces, just see GeoScript, how many
    people are there developing for a single language? GeoScript might have five developers, but
    GeoScript Python or GeoScript Scala really have one, they are one man projects at the moment (scary).
    Add to that the GIS nature of the project, and the set of developers that can do GIS in a certain non
    Java language becomes a niche within a niche
    It means that a module written in a language other than java has a much higher likeliness to just die
    if the developer working on it leaves

Now, let’s ramp up another bit and consider a core in which non Java languages are allowed.
The permgen issue would just happen all the time, and some parts of the code would be limited
to a single person, when that one leaves you’ll have two high leaning curves to go after,
first learning a new language, and then learning about whatever the code there is doing.
Moreover, code in “core” is officially maintained “by the PSC”, which is good, it means a group
of people care about that code. But in a multi-language scenario, that’s not possible anymores
unless the PSC members also become “language geeks”.

That’s why I believe that while extensions written in a non Java language are sort of ok
(but they will be troublesome the day we have many), core in non Java language is simply
not an option.

Unless… well, unless the non Java language war starting during these years ends with a clear
winner, a new languages that really takes the place of Java obliterating all of the other
competitors.
If in a future Scala becomes the de facto non Java choice, and Jython, JRuby, Groovy, Clojure, Kotlin, Ceylon
(and all the others that I won’t list) get relegated to a very small percentange, well, in that case I’ll be very happy
to switch the entire project to Scala

Cheers
Andrea

==
Our support, Your Success! Visit http://opensdi.geo-solutions.it for more information.

Ing. Andrea Aime
@geowolf
Technical Lead

GeoSolutions S.A.S.
Via Poggio alle Viti 1187
55054 Massarosa (LU)
Italy
phone: +39 0584 962313
fax: +39 0584 1660272
mob: +39 339 8844549

http://www.geo-solutions.it
http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it


Nothing to add here except that i agree that it should be only pure java in the core of GeoTools and GeoServer. Plugins and community modules I could perhaps see an argument for if the module has a stable maintainer.

···

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Andrea Aime <andrea.aime@anonymised.com> wrote:

Chris holmes wrote:

Out of curiosity, why is this so bad? I mean it complies to pure java bytecode, could just be thought of an
additional library, like the xml stuff we do. It’ll interoperate on any platform, which to me was the big
downside in bringing in other languages.

There is a variety of issues why I believe we should be firm about never including another JVM language in core (unless… read towards the end).

The nice thing about having scripting languages as an extension is that everybody can pick their preferred scripting language and go down writing their cool extension. Someone goes with Jython, another one has a preference for Scale, someone else is a Groovy type, the other guy over there is a JRuby kind of person, and yet everybody is happily writing their own thing. Tomorrow someone comes and wants to use Ceylon, or Kotlin, or Clojure, and by using the JSR for scripting languages we can slot in those as well.
This is splendid… as long as we think in terms of custom extensions that are not shared with a larger community.

Now let’s ramp up a bit, and let’s say people start writing official extensions in non Java languages.
You just download them and add them to your GeoServer, everything is working, it’s all fine, right?
Nope, whilst it’s not too bad, it’s not fine either:

  • each scripting language comes with its own runtime library, which is often rather heavy (several megabytes) pushing on our already quite poor permgen situation. And then… what if I need two or three of these extensions, all needing their own different runtime? That just multiplies the problem
  • “polyglot” programmers are not the norm today, and even those that are polyglots have made choices,
    creating a partitioning of the potential programmer base in tiny pieces, just see GeoScript, how many
    people are there developing for a single language? GeoScript might have five developers, but
    GeoScript Python or GeoScript Scala really have one, they are one man projects at the moment (scary).
    Add to that the GIS nature of the project, and the set of developers that can do GIS in a certain non
    Java language becomes a niche within a niche
    It means that a module written in a language other than java has a much higher likeliness to just die
    if the developer working on it leaves

Now, let’s ramp up another bit and consider a core in which non Java languages are allowed.
The permgen issue would just happen all the time, and some parts of the code would be limited
to a single person, when that one leaves you’ll have two high leaning curves to go after,
first learning a new language, and then learning about whatever the code there is doing.
Moreover, code in “core” is officially maintained “by the PSC”, which is good, it means a group
of people care about that code. But in a multi-language scenario, that’s not possible anymores
unless the PSC members also become “language geeks”.

That’s why I believe that while extensions written in a non Java language are sort of ok
(but they will be troublesome the day we have many), core in non Java language is simply
not an option.

Unless… well, unless the non Java language war starting during these years ends with a clear
winner, a new languages that really takes the place of Java obliterating all of the other
competitors.
If in a future Scala becomes the de facto non Java choice, and Jython, JRuby, Groovy, Clojure, Kotlin, Ceylon
(and all the others that I won’t list) get relegated to a very small percentange, well, in that case I’ll be very happy
to switch the entire project to Scala

Cheers
Andrea

==
Our support, Your Success! Visit http://opensdi.geo-solutions.it for more information.

Ing. Andrea Aime
@geowolf
Technical Lead

GeoSolutions S.A.S.
Via Poggio alle Viti 1187
55054 Massarosa (LU)
Italy
phone: +39 0584 962313
fax: +39 0584 1660272
mob: +39 339 8844549

http://www.geo-solutions.it
http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it



Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS,
MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current
with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft
MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only – learn more at:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122712


Geoserver-devel mailing list
Geoserver-devel@anonymised.comsts.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel


Justin Deoliveira
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Enterprise support for open source geospatial.

Cool, makes good sense, and was about what I suspected, was just curious for the full articulation. Thanks Andrea.

Might be good at some point to lay out this policy explicitly. But to not over complicate things we can just refer to this thread if it comes up.

···

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Justin Deoliveira <jdeolive@anonymised.com> wrote:

Nothing to add here except that i agree that it should be only pure java in the core of GeoTools and GeoServer. Plugins and community modules I could perhaps see an argument for if the module has a stable maintainer.


Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS,
MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current
with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft
MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only – learn more at:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122412


Geoserver-devel mailing list
Geoserver-devel@anonymised.comsts.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Andrea Aime <andrea.aime@anonymised.com…1268…> wrote:

Chris holmes wrote:

Out of curiosity, why is this so bad? I mean it complies to pure java bytecode, could just be thought of an
additional library, like the xml stuff we do. It’ll interoperate on any platform, which to me was the big
downside in bringing in other languages.

There is a variety of issues why I believe we should be firm about never including another JVM language in core (unless… read towards the end).

The nice thing about having scripting languages as an extension is that everybody can pick their preferred scripting language and go down writing their cool extension. Someone goes with Jython, another one has a preference for Scale, someone else is a Groovy type, the other guy over there is a JRuby kind of person, and yet everybody is happily writing their own thing. Tomorrow someone comes and wants to use Ceylon, or Kotlin, or Clojure, and by using the JSR for scripting languages we can slot in those as well.
This is splendid… as long as we think in terms of custom extensions that are not shared with a larger community.

Now let’s ramp up a bit, and let’s say people start writing official extensions in non Java languages.
You just download them and add them to your GeoServer, everything is working, it’s all fine, right?
Nope, whilst it’s not too bad, it’s not fine either:

  • each scripting language comes with its own runtime library, which is often rather heavy (several megabytes) pushing on our already quite poor permgen situation. And then… what if I need two or three of these extensions, all needing their own different runtime? That just multiplies the problem
  • “polyglot” programmers are not the norm today, and even those that are polyglots have made choices,
    creating a partitioning of the potential programmer base in tiny pieces, just see GeoScript, how many
    people are there developing for a single language? GeoScript might have five developers, but
    GeoScript Python or GeoScript Scala really have one, they are one man projects at the moment (scary).
    Add to that the GIS nature of the project, and the set of developers that can do GIS in a certain non
    Java language becomes a niche within a niche
    It means that a module written in a language other than java has a much higher likeliness to just die
    if the developer working on it leaves

Now, let’s ramp up another bit and consider a core in which non Java languages are allowed.
The permgen issue would just happen all the time, and some parts of the code would be limited
to a single person, when that one leaves you’ll have two high leaning curves to go after,
first learning a new language, and then learning about whatever the code there is doing.
Moreover, code in “core” is officially maintained “by the PSC”, which is good, it means a group
of people care about that code. But in a multi-language scenario, that’s not possible anymores
unless the PSC members also become “language geeks”.

That’s why I believe that while extensions written in a non Java language are sort of ok
(but they will be troublesome the day we have many), core in non Java language is simply
not an option.

Unless… well, unless the non Java language war starting during these years ends with a clear
winner, a new languages that really takes the place of Java obliterating all of the other
competitors.
If in a future Scala becomes the de facto non Java choice, and Jython, JRuby, Groovy, Clojure, Kotlin, Ceylon
(and all the others that I won’t list) get relegated to a very small percentange, well, in that case I’ll be very happy
to switch the entire project to Scala

Cheers
Andrea

==
Our support, Your Success! Visit http://opensdi.geo-solutions.it for more information.

Ing. Andrea Aime
@geowolf
Technical Lead

GeoSolutions S.A.S.
Via Poggio alle Viti 1187
55054 Massarosa (LU)
Italy
phone: +39 0584 962313
fax: +39 0584 1660272
mob: +39 339 8844549

http://www.geo-solutions.it
http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it



Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS,
MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current
with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft
MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only – learn more at:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122712


Geoserver-devel mailing list
Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel


Justin Deoliveira
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Enterprise support for open source geospatial.

On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Chris Holmes <cholmes@anonymised.com> wrote:

Cool, makes good sense, and was about what I suspected, was just curious
for the full articulation. Thanks Andrea.

Might be good at some point to lay out this policy explicitly. But to not
over complicate things we can just refer to this thread if it comes up.

Seems a little extreme to be making changes to project policy in response
to proposals that weren't made. But I guess it is better than waiting
until the issue comes up (and confusing policy with the decision made for a
specific case.)

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Justin Deoliveira <jdeolive@anonymised.com>wrote:

Nothing to add here except that i agree that it should be only pure java
in the core of GeoTools and GeoServer. Plugins and community modules I
could perhaps see an argument for if the module has a stable maintainer.

Well, plugins are currently clear to my knowledge, but GeoServer already
has a community module which is written in a non-Java language - the CSS
module which I maintain. This has been written in Scala since its
inception over two years ago (although I rewrote most of the frontend in
Java at Andrea's request about a year ago.) Is it acceptable for a
community module to depend on a runtime library like Scala's? What about
having Scala code outright?

The CSS module originally lived outside of the GeoServer repository so I
don't guess it would be a problem to go back.

--
David Winslow
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org/

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Andrea Aime
<andrea.aime@anonymised.com>wrote:

Chris holmes wrote:
>Out of curiosity, why is this so bad? I mean it complies to pure java
bytecode, could just be thought of an
> additional library, like the xml stuff we do. It'll interoperate on
any platform, which to me was the big
> downside in bringing in other languages.

There is a variety of issues why I believe we should be firm about never
including another JVM language in core (unless.. read towards the end).

The nice thing about having scripting languages as an extension is that
everybody can pick their preferred scripting language and go down writing
their cool extension. Someone goes with Jython, another one has a
preference for Scale, someone else is a Groovy type, the other guy over
there is a JRuby kind of person, and yet everybody is happily writing their
own thing. Tomorrow someone comes and wants to use Ceylon, or Kotlin, or
Clojure, and by using the JSR for scripting languages we can slot in those
as well.
This is splendid... as long as we think in terms of custom extensions
that are not shared with a larger community.

Now let's ramp up a bit, and let's say people start writing official
extensions in non Java languages.
You just download them and add them to your GeoServer, everything is
working, it's all fine, right?
Nope, whilst it's not too bad, it's not fine either:
- each scripting language comes with its own runtime library, which is
often rather heavy (several megabytes) pushing on our already quite
poor permgen situation. And then... what if I need two or three of these
extensions, all needing their own different runtime? That just multiplies
the problem
- "polyglot" programmers are not the norm today, and even those that are
polyglots have made choices,
  creating a partitioning of the potential programmer base in tiny
pieces, just see GeoScript, how many
  people are there developing for a single language? GeoScript might
have five developers, but
  GeoScript Python or GeoScript Scala really have one, they are one man
projects at the moment (scary).
  Add to that the GIS nature of the project, and the set of developers
that can do GIS in a certain non
  Java language becomes a niche within a niche
  It means that a module written in a language other than java has a
much higher likeliness to just die
  if the developer working on it leaves

Now, let's ramp up another bit and consider a core in which non Java
languages are allowed.
The permgen issue would just happen all the time, and some parts of the
code would be limited
to a single person, when that one leaves you'll have two high leaning
curves to go after,
first learning a new language, and then learning about whatever the code
there is doing.
Moreover, code in "core" is officially maintained "by the PSC", which is
good, it means a group
of people care about that code. But in a multi-language scenario, that's
not possible anymores
unless the PSC members also become "language geeks".

That's why I believe that while extensions written in a non Java
language are sort of ok
(but they will be troublesome the day we have many), core in non Java
language is simply
not an option.

Unless... well, unless the non Java language war starting during these
years ends with a clear
winner, a new languages that really takes the place of Java obliterating
all of the other
competitors.
If in a future Scala becomes the de facto non Java choice, and Jython,
JRuby, Groovy, Clojure, Kotlin, Ceylon
(and all the others that I won't list) get relegated to a very small
percentange, well, in that case I'll be very happy
to switch the entire project to Scala

Cheers
Andrea

--

Our support, Your Success! Visit http://opensdi.geo-solutions.it for
more information.

Ing. Andrea Aime
@geowolf
Technical Lead

GeoSolutions S.A.S.
Via Poggio alle Viti 1187
55054 Massarosa (LU)
Italy
phone: +39 0584 962313
fax: +39 0584 1660272
mob: +39 339 8844549

http://www.geo-solutions.it
http://twitter.com/geosolutions_it

-------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS,
MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current
with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft
MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122712
_______________________________________________
Geoserver-devel mailing list
Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel

--
Justin Deoliveira
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Enterprise support for open source geospatial.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS,
MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current
with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft
MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122412

_______________________________________________
Geoserver-devel mailing list
Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS,
MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current
with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft
MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at:
http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnnow-d2d
_______________________________________________
Geoserver-devel mailing list
Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel