[Geoserver-devel] RasterSymbolizer, where we are, where we want to go. (WAS: Re: problem styling tiff coverages)

GeoServer GeoServer Developer
,
1

Ciao Vincent,
sorry to answer with such a delay, but we are quite busy these days.
This email is of interest for anybody who's interested in styling
coverage using a WMS+SLD with RasterSymbolizer
Please, read below.

On 1/9/07, Vincent Schut <schut@anonymised.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I am encountering problems when trying to apply an sld with
rastersymbolizer to my coverages. It's a bit hard to really find out
what is wrong, but it seems styling does not like geotiffs (or vice
versa). I'll try to give a summary of what I tried and hope it rings a
bell somewhere...

- Applying a style (like dem.sld, raster.sld, or a customized version of
one of those) *does* work on the supplied gtopo30 sample raster;

I confirm that :-).

- Applying a style (idem) on my custom coverage does *not* work; the
raster gets rendered in grayscale, whatever I try. This raster is a
single band, tiled, Int32 geotiff, no colortable;
- Applying a style (idem) on a geotiff version (non-tiled, uint16, 1
band, no colortable) of the gtopo30_sample (created with gdal_translate)
does *not* work, neither does a baseline tiff with tfw file version;
- Applying a style to a fresh copy of the gtopo30 sample dataset
(created new dir with these files, created new coverageDataset, create
new Coverage) *does* work;

This is what I could think of to narrow down the problem, and leads me
to the following conclusion: styling does not work for tiff files. I
might be wrong and it sounds kind of illogical (why would it not work
for tiffs, but work for gtopo30 rasters, while I suppose that the
rendering chain is basically the same except for the file reader...),
but I have no idea how to investigate this any further. So I hope some
of the imaging/wcs guru's can shed some light on this (and fix it, I
hope :)).

<<Where we are now>>
Ok, here is where we are with raster symbolizer.

Honestly, the actual support for SLD+RasterSymbolizer is quite poor.
It came out as a quick (real quick) hack for a live demonstration we
had to give back in April 2006 and it was tested only on a few
sources, between the others gtopo30 (data type SHORT) and arcgrid
(data type FLOAT). Hence no surprises it does not do his job on some
different data types.

<<Where we want to go>>
We are putting together in the background some test-cases in order to
improve the RasterSymbolizer support. We aim to implement most part of
what's in the SLD specification, even if the minimum goal is to have
channel selection and color map working on most Java datatypes (int,
float, short. byte).

About timing:
I am willing to put on this a certain amount of volunteering time
(well, to be honest we are already doing the preparation work in the
background as a volunteer effort we already have some the ColorMap SLD
thing pretty much working).

I have seen various people active on the mailing list and interested
in this feature. So my idea/wish/suggestion is why don't we do
something like I have seen doing on other OS projects and we launch
like a sponsorship program for needs like this?

This could be an interesting test-case. There would be a proposal for
an implementation and there would people could act as sponsorship
giving some money, or giving some help with developing and or testing.
This should allow us to achieve more for the projects in a more
controlled fashion and hopefully in less time than having sparse
separate efforts.

What do people think about this? Am I completely crazy?

Ciao,
Simone.

Some additional info: using sun jdk 1.5.0-09, jai and jai-imageio from
cvs (synced yesterday), geotools (2.3.x branch) from svn (yesterday),
geoserver svn trunk from yesterday, deployed in tomcat-5.5.

Cheers from a bit desparate Vincent (I /do/ need raster styling...).

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--
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini
President /CEO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

-------------------------------------------------------

2

Hi Simone,

thanks for the eleborate answer. Sorry for being impatient.

I think the sponsored developing could be a Good Thing, also because it allows users to put some priorities on development.
However, I am sorry to say so but I am afraid we won't be able to financially support geoserver development (right now). It's not that we don't want to, but it's that we barely survive ourselves financially. So I am afraid that, no matter how much I'd like to, we currently can't. But don't let this stop you, I'm sure others can and probably want to and will, and hopefully in the future we will also be able to join. If I were more fluent (and felt more confident) in java I'd sponsor by coding, but my java skills are very basic, and geoserver is imho a pretty complicated project. It's true I did some java coding, and even used JAI, but I'm more from a python world, and my java programs are so to say a bit pythonic in nature :slight_smile: It was JAI that got me into java, not java that got me into JAI. So the only support for me to offer is live testing of cutting edge features, which I apparently already do :slight_smile:

Regarding the RasterSymbolizer support: I just was under the impression that it was supposed to work. I have chosen geoserver as a follow up for mapserver only after wcs got implemented, and am not afraid to walk on the edge and use barely implemented stuff. I supposed the implementation of wcs included raster sld support.
But, do I understand correctly that Float and Short datatypes *do* have sld RasterSymbolizer support, independent of filetype (geotiff)? That would be a good enough workaround for me, I can easily convert most of my rasters to one of these datatypes.

Anyways, I hope you do find some good sponsors, I think geoserver is definely worth it and you guys do an awesome job!

Cheers,
Vincent.

Simone Giannecchini wrote:

Ciao Vincent,
sorry to answer with such a delay, but we are quite busy these days.
This email is of interest for anybody who's interested in styling
coverage using a WMS+SLD with RasterSymbolizer
Please, read below.

On 1/9/07, Vincent Schut <schut@anonymised.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I am encountering problems when trying to apply an sld with
rastersymbolizer to my coverages. It's a bit hard to really find out
what is wrong, but it seems styling does not like geotiffs (or vice
versa). I'll try to give a summary of what I tried and hope it rings a
bell somewhere...

- Applying a style (like dem.sld, raster.sld, or a customized version of
one of those) *does* work on the supplied gtopo30 sample raster;

I confirm that :-).

- Applying a style (idem) on my custom coverage does *not* work; the
raster gets rendered in grayscale, whatever I try. This raster is a
single band, tiled, Int32 geotiff, no colortable;
- Applying a style (idem) on a geotiff version (non-tiled, uint16, 1
band, no colortable) of the gtopo30_sample (created with gdal_translate)
does *not* work, neither does a baseline tiff with tfw file version;
- Applying a style to a fresh copy of the gtopo30 sample dataset
(created new dir with these files, created new coverageDataset, create
new Coverage) *does* work;

This is what I could think of to narrow down the problem, and leads me
to the following conclusion: styling does not work for tiff files. I
might be wrong and it sounds kind of illogical (why would it not work
for tiffs, but work for gtopo30 rasters, while I suppose that the
rendering chain is basically the same except for the file reader...),
but I have no idea how to investigate this any further. So I hope some
of the imaging/wcs guru's can shed some light on this (and fix it, I
hope :)).

<<Where we are now>>
Ok, here is where we are with raster symbolizer.

Honestly, the actual support for SLD+RasterSymbolizer is quite poor.
It came out as a quick (real quick) hack for a live demonstration we
had to give back in April 2006 and it was tested only on a few
sources, between the others gtopo30 (data type SHORT) and arcgrid
(data type FLOAT). Hence no surprises it does not do his job on some
different data types.

<<Where we want to go>>
We are putting together in the background some test-cases in order to
improve the RasterSymbolizer support. We aim to implement most part of
what's in the SLD specification, even if the minimum goal is to have
channel selection and color map working on most Java datatypes (int,
float, short. byte).

About timing:
I am willing to put on this a certain amount of volunteering time
(well, to be honest we are already doing the preparation work in the
background as a volunteer effort we already have some the ColorMap SLD
thing pretty much working).

I have seen various people active on the mailing list and interested
in this feature. So my idea/wish/suggestion is why don't we do
something like I have seen doing on other OS projects and we launch
like a sponsorship program for needs like this?

This could be an interesting test-case. There would be a proposal for
an implementation and there would people could act as sponsorship
giving some money, or giving some help with developing and or testing.
This should allow us to achieve more for the projects in a more
controlled fashion and hopefully in less time than having sparse
separate efforts.

What do people think about this? Am I completely crazy?

Ciao,
Simone.

Some additional info: using sun jdk 1.5.0-09, jai and jai-imageio from
cvs (synced yesterday), geotools (2.3.x branch) from svn (yesterday),
geoserver svn trunk from yesterday, deployed in tomcat-5.5.

Cheers from a bit desparate Vincent (I /do/ need raster styling...).

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3

On 1/15/07, Vincent Schut <schut@anonymised.com> wrote:

Hi Simone,

thanks for the eleborate answer. Sorry for being impatient.

I think the sponsored developing could be a Good Thing, also because it
allows users to put some priorities on development.
However, I am sorry to say so but I am afraid we won't be able to
financially support geoserver development (right now). It's not that we
don't want to, but it's that we barely survive ourselves financially. So
I am afraid that, no matter how much I'd like to, we currently can't.
But don't let this stop you, I'm sure others can and probably want to
and will, and hopefully in the future we will also be able to join.

Don't worry man, I am just trying to light up some dscussion on this
issue since it could be a good way to push forward the development. As
of your involvement, you could do this, you could provide a brief
description of what you are willing to achieve which could become one
of the test-cases to drive the development, as well as some
sample-data (which you already provided and I should already have
somehwere on my laptop :slight_smile: ). I would like to see that other people
think about this idea of development proposals (cholmes? aaime?).

If I
were more fluent (and felt more confident) in java I'd sponsor by
coding, but my java skills are very basic, and geoserver is imho a
pretty complicated project. It's true I did some java coding, and even
used JAI, but I'm more from a python world, and my java programs are so
to say a bit pythonic in nature :slight_smile: It was JAI that got me into java, not
java that got me into JAI. So the only support for me to offer is live
testing of cutting edge features, which I apparently already do :slight_smile:

That helps anyway!

Regarding the RasterSymbolizer support: I just was under the impression
that it was supposed to work. I have chosen geoserver as a follow up for
mapserver only after wcs got implemented, and am not afraid to walk on
the edge and use barely implemented stuff. I supposed the implementation
of wcs included raster sld support.

WMS actually.. :slight_smile:

But, do I understand correctly that Float and Short datatypes *do* have
sld RasterSymbolizer support, independent of filetype (geotiff)? That
would be a good enough workaround for me, I can easily convert most of
my rasters to one of these datatypes.

How impatient are you? Which means, when do you need the thing working?
Give a detailed test-case and I can try to force we have in the
background to work you.
Not sure however about timing, but once we have a test-case we can see
what we can do.

Anyways, I hope you do find some good sponsors, I think geoserver is
definely worth it and you guys do an awesome job!

I know, I know...
:slight_smile:

Thx,
Simone.

Cheers,
Vincent.

Simone Giannecchini wrote:
> Ciao Vincent,
> sorry to answer with such a delay, but we are quite busy these days.
> This email is of interest for anybody who's interested in styling
> coverage using a WMS+SLD with RasterSymbolizer
> Please, read below.
>
> On 1/9/07, Vincent Schut <schut@anonymised.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am encountering problems when trying to apply an sld with
>> rastersymbolizer to my coverages. It's a bit hard to really find out
>> what is wrong, but it seems styling does not like geotiffs (or vice
>> versa). I'll try to give a summary of what I tried and hope it rings a
>> bell somewhere...
>>
>> - Applying a style (like dem.sld, raster.sld, or a customized version of
>> one of those) *does* work on the supplied gtopo30 sample raster;
>
> I confirm that :-).
>
>> - Applying a style (idem) on my custom coverage does *not* work; the
>> raster gets rendered in grayscale, whatever I try. This raster is a
>> single band, tiled, Int32 geotiff, no colortable;
>> - Applying a style (idem) on a geotiff version (non-tiled, uint16, 1
>> band, no colortable) of the gtopo30_sample (created with gdal_translate)
>> does *not* work, neither does a baseline tiff with tfw file version;
>> - Applying a style to a fresh copy of the gtopo30 sample dataset
>> (created new dir with these files, created new coverageDataset, create
>> new Coverage) *does* work;
>>
>> This is what I could think of to narrow down the problem, and leads me
>> to the following conclusion: styling does not work for tiff files. I
>> might be wrong and it sounds kind of illogical (why would it not work
>> for tiffs, but work for gtopo30 rasters, while I suppose that the
>> rendering chain is basically the same except for the file reader...),
>> but I have no idea how to investigate this any further. So I hope some
>> of the imaging/wcs guru's can shed some light on this (and fix it, I
>> hope :)).
>>
>
> <<Where we are now>>
> Ok, here is where we are with raster symbolizer.
>
> Honestly, the actual support for SLD+RasterSymbolizer is quite poor.
> It came out as a quick (real quick) hack for a live demonstration we
> had to give back in April 2006 and it was tested only on a few
> sources, between the others gtopo30 (data type SHORT) and arcgrid
> (data type FLOAT). Hence no surprises it does not do his job on some
> different data types.
>
> <<Where we want to go>>
> We are putting together in the background some test-cases in order to
> improve the RasterSymbolizer support. We aim to implement most part of
> what's in the SLD specification, even if the minimum goal is to have
> channel selection and color map working on most Java datatypes (int,
> float, short. byte).
>
> About timing:
> I am willing to put on this a certain amount of volunteering time
> (well, to be honest we are already doing the preparation work in the
> background as a volunteer effort we already have some the ColorMap SLD
> thing pretty much working).
>
> I have seen various people active on the mailing list and interested
> in this feature. So my idea/wish/suggestion is why don't we do
> something like I have seen doing on other OS projects and we launch
> like a sponsorship program for needs like this?
>
> This could be an interesting test-case. There would be a proposal for
> an implementation and there would people could act as sponsorship
> giving some money, or giving some help with developing and or testing.
> This should allow us to achieve more for the projects in a more
> controlled fashion and hopefully in less time than having sparse
> separate efforts.
>
> What do people think about this? Am I completely crazy?
>
> Ciao,
> Simone.
>
>> Some additional info: using sun jdk 1.5.0-09, jai and jai-imageio from
>> cvs (synced yesterday), geotools (2.3.x branch) from svn (yesterday),
>> geoserver svn trunk from yesterday, deployed in tomcat-5.5.
>>
>> Cheers from a bit desparate Vincent (I /do/ need raster styling...).
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to
>> share your
>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
>> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Geoserver-devel mailing list
>> Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel
>>
>

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--
-------------------------------------------------------
Eng. Simone Giannecchini
President /CEO GeoSolutions

http://www.geo-solutions.it

-------------------------------------------------------

4

Simone Giannecchini ha scritto:
... I would like to see that other people

think about this idea of development proposals (cholmes? aaime?).

I'd say, good topic for today's Geotools meeting no? :-p
Cheers
Andrea

5

Simone Giannecchini wrote:

On 1/15/07, Vincent Schut <schut@anonymised.com> wrote:

Hi Simone,

thanks for the eleborate answer. Sorry for being impatient.

I think the sponsored developing could be a Good Thing, also because it
allows users to put some priorities on development.
However, I am sorry to say so but I am afraid we won't be able to
financially support geoserver development (right now). It's not that we
don't want to, but it's that we barely survive ourselves financially. So
I am afraid that, no matter how much I'd like to, we currently can't.
But don't let this stop you, I'm sure others can and probably want to
and will, and hopefully in the future we will also be able to join.

Don't worry man, I am just trying to light up some dscussion on this
issue since it could be a good way to push forward the development. As
of your involvement, you could do this, you could provide a brief
description of what you are willing to achieve which could become one
of the test-cases to drive the development, as well as some
sample-data (which you already provided and I should already have
somehwere on my laptop :slight_smile: ). I would like to see that other people
think about this idea of development proposals (cholmes? aaime?).

I like the idea of development proposals, have contemplated them for awhile. They're sorta like 'reverse bounties' - we know some work that needs to be done, that at least a few people really want, and have people willing to do it when there's funding. So in general, I'm definitely in to the idea, and I've been working to figure out how we can set up a better mechanism for doing such things.

The one caveat I'd say is that there needs to be a baseline level of functionality. Like it's much harder to get people to sponsor things that they assume should already be there. I don't know the particulars of this case, but it sounds like it's something that people generally expect? I think the things that are better for funding are concrete improvements on an already solid base. Like the bigtiff stuff Frank's doing, the locking in PostGIS, ect. The base libraries are already about the best out there, so it makes sense to fund them to become even better. I think it's a harder value proposition for anyone that's not already very committed to fund something to take it to the level of something already out there - like MapServer in this case.

But I could be wrong about this. I do think we should try for at least a few topics. I'm swamped this month filling out some grant applications, but I hope to devote next month to more of these biz dev type ideas around GeoServer.

best regards,

Chris

If I
were more fluent (and felt more confident) in java I'd sponsor by
coding, but my java skills are very basic, and geoserver is imho a
pretty complicated project. It's true I did some java coding, and even
used JAI, but I'm more from a python world, and my java programs are so
to say a bit pythonic in nature :slight_smile: It was JAI that got me into java, not
java that got me into JAI. So the only support for me to offer is live
testing of cutting edge features, which I apparently already do :slight_smile:

That helps anyway!

Regarding the RasterSymbolizer support: I just was under the impression
that it was supposed to work. I have chosen geoserver as a follow up for
mapserver only after wcs got implemented, and am not afraid to walk on
the edge and use barely implemented stuff. I supposed the implementation
of wcs included raster sld support.

WMS actually.. :slight_smile:

But, do I understand correctly that Float and Short datatypes *do* have
sld RasterSymbolizer support, independent of filetype (geotiff)? That
would be a good enough workaround for me, I can easily convert most of
my rasters to one of these datatypes.

How impatient are you? Which means, when do you need the thing working?
Give a detailed test-case and I can try to force we have in the
background to work you.
Not sure however about timing, but once we have a test-case we can see
what we can do.

Anyways, I hope you do find some good sponsors, I think geoserver is
definely worth it and you guys do an awesome job!

I know, I know...
:slight_smile:

Thx,
Simone.

Cheers,
Vincent.

Simone Giannecchini wrote:
> Ciao Vincent,
> sorry to answer with such a delay, but we are quite busy these days.
> This email is of interest for anybody who's interested in styling
> coverage using a WMS+SLD with RasterSymbolizer
> Please, read below.
>
> On 1/9/07, Vincent Schut <schut@anonymised.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am encountering problems when trying to apply an sld with
>> rastersymbolizer to my coverages. It's a bit hard to really find out
>> what is wrong, but it seems styling does not like geotiffs (or vice
>> versa). I'll try to give a summary of what I tried and hope it rings a
>> bell somewhere...
>>
>> - Applying a style (like dem.sld, raster.sld, or a customized version of
>> one of those) *does* work on the supplied gtopo30 sample raster;
>
> I confirm that :-).
>
>> - Applying a style (idem) on my custom coverage does *not* work; the
>> raster gets rendered in grayscale, whatever I try. This raster is a
>> single band, tiled, Int32 geotiff, no colortable;
>> - Applying a style (idem) on a geotiff version (non-tiled, uint16, 1
>> band, no colortable) of the gtopo30_sample (created with gdal_translate)
>> does *not* work, neither does a baseline tiff with tfw file version;
>> - Applying a style to a fresh copy of the gtopo30 sample dataset
>> (created new dir with these files, created new coverageDataset, create
>> new Coverage) *does* work;
>>
>> This is what I could think of to narrow down the problem, and leads me
>> to the following conclusion: styling does not work for tiff files. I
>> might be wrong and it sounds kind of illogical (why would it not work
>> for tiffs, but work for gtopo30 rasters, while I suppose that the
>> rendering chain is basically the same except for the file reader...),
>> but I have no idea how to investigate this any further. So I hope some
>> of the imaging/wcs guru's can shed some light on this (and fix it, I
>> hope :)).
>>
>
> <<Where we are now>>
> Ok, here is where we are with raster symbolizer.
>
> Honestly, the actual support for SLD+RasterSymbolizer is quite poor.
> It came out as a quick (real quick) hack for a live demonstration we
> had to give back in April 2006 and it was tested only on a few
> sources, between the others gtopo30 (data type SHORT) and arcgrid
> (data type FLOAT). Hence no surprises it does not do his job on some
> different data types.
>
> <<Where we want to go>>
> We are putting together in the background some test-cases in order to
> improve the RasterSymbolizer support. We aim to implement most part of
> what's in the SLD specification, even if the minimum goal is to have
> channel selection and color map working on most Java datatypes (int,
> float, short. byte).
>
> About timing:
> I am willing to put on this a certain amount of volunteering time
> (well, to be honest we are already doing the preparation work in the
> background as a volunteer effort we already have some the ColorMap SLD
> thing pretty much working).
>
> I have seen various people active on the mailing list and interested
> in this feature. So my idea/wish/suggestion is why don't we do
> something like I have seen doing on other OS projects and we launch
> like a sponsorship program for needs like this?
>
> This could be an interesting test-case. There would be a proposal for
> an implementation and there would people could act as sponsorship
> giving some money, or giving some help with developing and or testing.
> This should allow us to achieve more for the projects in a more
> controlled fashion and hopefully in less time than having sparse
> separate efforts.
>
> What do people think about this? Am I completely crazy?
>
> Ciao,
> Simone.
>
>> Some additional info: using sun jdk 1.5.0-09, jai and jai-imageio from
>> cvs (synced yesterday), geotools (2.3.x branch) from svn (yesterday),
>> geoserver svn trunk from yesterday, deployed in tomcat-5.5.
>>
>> Cheers from a bit desparate Vincent (I /do/ need raster styling...).
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to
>> share your
>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
>> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Geoserver-devel mailing list
>> Geoserver-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geoserver-devel
>>
>

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--
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The Open Planning Project
http://topp.openplans.org

6

I had a quick look at the problem (and must say that our javadocs serve was one of the fastest references to the specifications around - way to go Martin). My impression is that making good on the raster symbolizer will require several JAI chains depending on the source image - can we arrange a table of what is supported currently :slight_smile:

Simone Giannecchini ha scritto:
... I would like to see that other people
  

think about this idea of development proposals (cholmes? aaime?).
    

I'd say, good topic for today's Geotools meeting no? :-p
  

Sure :slight_smile: Indeed OSGeo has had recent emails about supporting project sponsorship - perhaps this can serve as a motivator for our involvement. Chris can we grab an update on the where the OSGeo Board is with respect to Adrian's document during today's meeting as well.

Jody