I've been working with the KML reflector with all the Google Earth work that we've been doing, and I think it's great. It allows users to request layers using a URL structure that is simple and only includes what the user specifically cares about. It's customizable, but it makes sensible assumptions. That's nifty.
So, it was very neat to learn (yes, you all know this, and I'm sure someone has shown it to me at some point) that there is an equivalent for WMS requests.
I think this should be more prominent. Specifically, I would like to see the WMS reflector available as part of the list of links we include on our Map Preview page. Before I file a JIRA, I wanted to know if there was any specific reasoning why the KML reflector was included on that page, but not the WMS reflector?
I talked to Andrea in the channel about this and since he mentioned that he's likely to be slow to respond due to other commitments, I will quote from our conversation below to provide his 2 eurocents.
---
[12:56] <bmmpxf> aaime: Out of curiosity, is there a reason why we don't have the Map Preview links use the WMS reflector?
[12:56] <bmmpxf> ...considering we use the KML reflector for the KML links...
[12:56] <aaime> because we're supposed to teach people the standards
[12:56] <aaime> (imho)
[12:57] <aaime> why the KML links used the reflector in the first place, eh, don't know
[12:57] <aaime> I prefer the vanilla WMS request from a "this is WMS" point of view
[12:57] <aaime> thought I see how the reflector may be nicer
[12:58] <aaime> as in easier
[12:58] <aaime> but it's misleading as well
[12:59] <bmmpxf> aaime: I can see it from both sides, but I think we should either use the reflector for both or neither. (I prefer both.)
[12:59] <aaime> yeah, I'd prefer neither instead 
[13:00] <bmmpxf> But it's tough, because we don't want to dumb down our demo page...
[13:00] <aaime> it really boils down to what audience you want to get
[13:00] <aaime> the people looking for OGC stuff will be put off by the reflector usage
[13:00] <aaime> the people looking for quick and dirty will prefer the reflector instead...
[13:02] <bmmpxf> But if we have this nifty, easy-to-use feature, perhaps we should push it a bit more?
[13:02] <bmmpxf> As in, why not have both links on the demo page?
[13:02] <aaime> because we have too many links already
[13:02] <aaime> we need more demo pages
[13:02] <aaime> one that shows off the reflectors would be great
[13:03] <aaime> as would be one that allows you to easily build a WFS GetFeature request
[13:05] <bmmpxf> aaime: Yeah, I guess we should add that to the list. 
[13:06] <aaime> or else we could have a demo page showing how to build a wms GetMap
[13:06] <aaime> and use the reflectors in the preview
[13:10] <bmmpxf> aaime: These are good ideas. Shall we start a thread on the users or devel list? I'd like to solicit some feedback from others as well...
Thanks,
Mike Pumphrey
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
What I'd eventually like to see is that the reflector ease of use is part of the rest hierarchy. We're going to have the layer overview page, with like states.html. I think there you should be able to do reflector type stuff /states.png&srs=900913&style=blue
We can promote that as an alternate API, which is nice and easy to use, and isn't a hack on top of WMS that confuses the issue.
I think I agree that KML and WMS on the demo page should either both be reflectors or both not. I think how I feel about which it should be fluctuates between how in to OGC I am at the time. I mean, the real thing to do would be to influence them so that the way the reflector does it becomes part of the standard. Which in my humble opinion is how they should have done it from the start - supply reasonable defaults, and indeed is the case with WFS. I agree WFS is less complicated, but it's way easier to get some data out of it with a url and iterate from there.
Chris
Mike Pumphrey wrote:
I've been working with the KML reflector with all the Google Earth work that we've been doing, and I think it's great. It allows users to request layers using a URL structure that is simple and only includes what the user specifically cares about. It's customizable, but it makes sensible assumptions. That's nifty.
So, it was very neat to learn (yes, you all know this, and I'm sure someone has shown it to me at some point) that there is an equivalent for WMS requests.
I think this should be more prominent. Specifically, I would like to see the WMS reflector available as part of the list of links we include on our Map Preview page. Before I file a JIRA, I wanted to know if there was any specific reasoning why the KML reflector was included on that page, but not the WMS reflector?
I talked to Andrea in the channel about this and since he mentioned that he's likely to be slow to respond due to other commitments, I will quote from our conversation below to provide his 2 eurocents.
---
[12:56] <bmmpxf> aaime: Out of curiosity, is there a reason why we don't have the Map Preview links use the WMS reflector?
[12:56] <bmmpxf> ...considering we use the KML reflector for the KML links...
[12:56] <aaime> because we're supposed to teach people the standards
[12:56] <aaime> (imho)
[12:57] <aaime> why the KML links used the reflector in the first place, eh, don't know
[12:57] <aaime> I prefer the vanilla WMS request from a "this is WMS" point of view
[12:57] <aaime> thought I see how the reflector may be nicer
[12:58] <aaime> as in easier
[12:58] <aaime> but it's misleading as well
[12:59] <bmmpxf> aaime: I can see it from both sides, but I think we should either use the reflector for both or neither. (I prefer both.)
[12:59] <aaime> yeah, I'd prefer neither instead
[13:00] <bmmpxf> But it's tough, because we don't want to dumb down our demo page...
[13:00] <aaime> it really boils down to what audience you want to get
[13:00] <aaime> the people looking for OGC stuff will be put off by the reflector usage
[13:00] <aaime> the people looking for quick and dirty will prefer the reflector instead...
[13:02] <bmmpxf> But if we have this nifty, easy-to-use feature, perhaps we should push it a bit more?
[13:02] <bmmpxf> As in, why not have both links on the demo page?
[13:02] <aaime> because we have too many links already
[13:02] <aaime> we need more demo pages
[13:02] <aaime> one that shows off the reflectors would be great
[13:03] <aaime> as would be one that allows you to easily build a WFS GetFeature request
[13:05] <bmmpxf> aaime: Yeah, I guess we should add that to the list.
[13:06] <aaime> or else we could have a demo page showing how to build a wms GetMap
[13:06] <aaime> and use the reflectors in the preview
[13:10] <bmmpxf> aaime: These are good ideas. Shall we start a thread on the users or devel list? I'd like to solicit some feedback from others as well...
Thanks,
Mike Pumphrey
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
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OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Expert service straight from the developers.
I suggested to Mike in a face-to-face conversation earlier today that we could have the reflector send an HTTP redirect to the correct/standards-compliant URL. I think this would be a good way to make the reflector's operation more transparent while still saving the user some keystrokes.
Another point is that the KML reflector actually does not mirror the WMS requests; it has the different modes now and even in previous GeoServer versions was the only way to request auto-refreshing KML documents, so the use of the reflector for KML is not purely an aesthetic decision. We can, of course, provide the mode facility in standard WMS requests as a KML format option, but my first impression is that it is sufficiently different from standard 'give me a tile' requests that it should probably stay separate.
-d
Chris Holmes wrote:
What I'd eventually like to see is that the reflector ease of use is part of the rest hierarchy. We're going to have the layer overview page, with like states.html. I think there you should be able to do reflector type stuff /states.png&srs=900913&style=blue
We can promote that as an alternate API, which is nice and easy to use, and isn't a hack on top of WMS that confuses the issue.
I think I agree that KML and WMS on the demo page should either both be reflectors or both not. I think how I feel about which it should be fluctuates between how in to OGC I am at the time. I mean, the real thing to do would be to influence them so that the way the reflector does it becomes part of the standard. Which in my humble opinion is how they should have done it from the start - supply reasonable defaults, and indeed is the case with WFS. I agree WFS is less complicated, but it's way easier to get some data out of it with a url and iterate from there.
Chris
Mike Pumphrey wrote:
I've been working with the KML reflector with all the Google Earth work that we've been doing, and I think it's great. It allows users to request layers using a URL structure that is simple and only includes what the user specifically cares about. It's customizable, but it makes sensible assumptions. That's nifty.
So, it was very neat to learn (yes, you all know this, and I'm sure someone has shown it to me at some point) that there is an equivalent for WMS requests.
I think this should be more prominent. Specifically, I would like to see the WMS reflector available as part of the list of links we include on our Map Preview page. Before I file a JIRA, I wanted to know if there was any specific reasoning why the KML reflector was included on that page, but not the WMS reflector?
I talked to Andrea in the channel about this and since he mentioned that he's likely to be slow to respond due to other commitments, I will quote from our conversation below to provide his 2 eurocents.
---
[12:56] <bmmpxf> aaime: Out of curiosity, is there a reason why we don't have the Map Preview links use the WMS reflector?
[12:56] <bmmpxf> ...considering we use the KML reflector for the KML links...
[12:56] <aaime> because we're supposed to teach people the standards
[12:56] <aaime> (imho)
[12:57] <aaime> why the KML links used the reflector in the first place, eh, don't know
[12:57] <aaime> I prefer the vanilla WMS request from a "this is WMS" point of view
[12:57] <aaime> thought I see how the reflector may be nicer
[12:58] <aaime> as in easier
[12:58] <aaime> but it's misleading as well
[12:59] <bmmpxf> aaime: I can see it from both sides, but I think we should either use the reflector for both or neither. (I prefer both.)
[12:59] <aaime> yeah, I'd prefer neither instead
[13:00] <bmmpxf> But it's tough, because we don't want to dumb down our demo page...
[13:00] <aaime> it really boils down to what audience you want to get
[13:00] <aaime> the people looking for OGC stuff will be put off by the reflector usage
[13:00] <aaime> the people looking for quick and dirty will prefer the reflector instead...
[13:02] <bmmpxf> But if we have this nifty, easy-to-use feature, perhaps we should push it a bit more?
[13:02] <bmmpxf> As in, why not have both links on the demo page?
[13:02] <aaime> because we have too many links already
[13:02] <aaime> we need more demo pages
[13:02] <aaime> one that shows off the reflectors would be great
[13:03] <aaime> as would be one that allows you to easily build a WFS GetFeature request
[13:05] <bmmpxf> aaime: Yeah, I guess we should add that to the list.
[13:06] <aaime> or else we could have a demo page showing how to build a wms GetMap
[13:06] <aaime> and use the reflectors in the preview
[13:10] <bmmpxf> aaime: These are good ideas. Shall we start a thread on the users or devel list? I'd like to solicit some feedback from others as well...
Thanks,
Mike Pumphrey
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
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Just to give my 2 cents. I think having both the URL's using the reflector makes sense as the entire nature of the preview is "convenience" it seems to fit. I do like the idea of exposing the "raw" WMS request as a learning tool. Perhaps on the preview page we could add some output that shows the actual wms request being made based on all the parameters set on the map preview.
-Justin
Mike Pumphrey wrote:
I've been working with the KML reflector with all the Google Earth work that we've been doing, and I think it's great. It allows users to request layers using a URL structure that is simple and only includes what the user specifically cares about. It's customizable, but it makes sensible assumptions. That's nifty.
So, it was very neat to learn (yes, you all know this, and I'm sure someone has shown it to me at some point) that there is an equivalent for WMS requests.
I think this should be more prominent. Specifically, I would like to see the WMS reflector available as part of the list of links we include on our Map Preview page. Before I file a JIRA, I wanted to know if there was any specific reasoning why the KML reflector was included on that page, but not the WMS reflector?
I talked to Andrea in the channel about this and since he mentioned that he's likely to be slow to respond due to other commitments, I will quote from our conversation below to provide his 2 eurocents.
---
[12:56] <bmmpxf> aaime: Out of curiosity, is there a reason why we don't have the Map Preview links use the WMS reflector?
[12:56] <bmmpxf> ...considering we use the KML reflector for the KML links...
[12:56] <aaime> because we're supposed to teach people the standards
[12:56] <aaime> (imho)
[12:57] <aaime> why the KML links used the reflector in the first place, eh, don't know
[12:57] <aaime> I prefer the vanilla WMS request from a "this is WMS" point of view
[12:57] <aaime> thought I see how the reflector may be nicer
[12:58] <aaime> as in easier
[12:58] <aaime> but it's misleading as well
[12:59] <bmmpxf> aaime: I can see it from both sides, but I think we should either use the reflector for both or neither. (I prefer both.)
[12:59] <aaime> yeah, I'd prefer neither instead
[13:00] <bmmpxf> But it's tough, because we don't want to dumb down our demo page...
[13:00] <aaime> it really boils down to what audience you want to get
[13:00] <aaime> the people looking for OGC stuff will be put off by the reflector usage
[13:00] <aaime> the people looking for quick and dirty will prefer the reflector instead...
[13:02] <bmmpxf> But if we have this nifty, easy-to-use feature, perhaps we should push it a bit more?
[13:02] <bmmpxf> As in, why not have both links on the demo page?
[13:02] <aaime> because we have too many links already
[13:02] <aaime> we need more demo pages
[13:02] <aaime> one that shows off the reflectors would be great
[13:03] <aaime> as would be one that allows you to easily build a WFS GetFeature request
[13:05] <bmmpxf> aaime: Yeah, I guess we should add that to the list.
[13:06] <aaime> or else we could have a demo page showing how to build a wms GetMap
[13:06] <aaime> and use the reflectors in the preview
[13:10] <bmmpxf> aaime: These are good ideas. Shall we start a thread on the users or devel list? I'd like to solicit some feedback from others as well...
Thanks,
Mike Pumphrey
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Justin Deoliveira
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Enterprise support for open source geospatial.