[GRASS-dev] 6.4.0 blocker bugs

cmbarton · August 18, 2010, 5:39pm

On Aug 17, 2010, at 11:24 PM, <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:26:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hamish <hamish_b@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GRASS-dev] 6.4.0 blocker bugs
To: GRASS developers list <grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org>
Message-ID: <64190.6834.qm@web110015.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

2010/8/12 Markus Neteler:

So, there's no need to delay 6.4.0 for ctypes. We can add it in
6.4.1,

this option has my vote. Release now, as-is, and add ctypes for 6.4.1.
(ok, I've just gotten off an airplane, gimme 24 hours for final tests
on linux and windowsXP now that swig is removed

did swig/examples/ get moved away before the rm?

or even make a separate package which works with 6.4.0

no thanks, too messy. Just release 6.4.1 with it in 3-5 weeks +1 RC.

re. default GUI, again my vote is to release now, as-is.
aka don't make major code or policy changes in the last moments before
release, no matter how attractive it seems short-term.

I would note that we are default tcl/tk; only the "downstream" packagers
for WinGrass and Mac have decided to change it to Wx in their packages.
(Ok, with the possible exception of JEF@osgeo4w downstream is mostly
just us anyway, but technically speaking..)

actually WinGrass is only default as for the icon it sticks on the desktop.
from the menu there is a "grass64 -tcltk" option and a "grass64 -wxpython"
option. Each will technically reset the default GUI each time you call it.

Finally, for the FOSS4G 2010 OSGeo Live GIS disc I have packaged it with
~/.grassrc6 containing GRASS_GUI=wxpython, so there Linux starts with
the wxGUI.

Switching the GUI is very easy from the Config menu, and even if it is
step 1. it shows the user that other avenues exist if they run into a
problem with e.g. the wx digitizer tool.

thanks,
Hamish

I have to agree with Hamish here. We have delayed for over a year. Getting GRASS to run robustly on Windows is worth it. But I'm not convinced that moving ctypes into 6.4 would be all that easy. Watching the issues for Windows compiling of GRASS 7 is worrisome in this regard. 6.4 works fine as is now. Let's release it and make it a bit better with 6.4.1

Michael
____________________
C. Michael Barton
Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Arizona State University

voice: 480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-727-9746 (CSDC)
fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC), 480-727-0709 (CSDC)
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu

neteler · August 18, 2010, 6:29pm

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton@asu.edu> wrote:

On Aug 17, 2010, at 11:24 PM, <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

...

I have to agree with Hamish here. We have delayed for over a year. Getting GRASS to run robustly on Windows is worth it. But I'm not convinced that moving ctypes into 6.4 would be all that easy. Watching the issues for Windows compiling of GRASS 7 is worrisome in this regard. 6.4 works fine as is now. Let's release it and make it a bit better with 6.4.1

Please also post your opinion about (Mac, Linux):
- Release 6.4.0 with TclTK default GUI and switch in 6.4.1 to wxGUI as default;
- Do first RC7 with wxGUI as default, then release 6.4.0, don't change
with 6.4.1.
?

Markus

Helena_Mitasova · August 18, 2010, 6:58pm

as Hamish has noted the choice of the default GUI is decided by whoever does the binary package (?).
So my plea was pretty much for William to make wxGUI default in his Mac binary.
People who run linux or compile GRASS from source are generally used to customizing so that is
not so much an issue. It is really for newcomers who download GRASS binary and start GRASS
and then the first thing they have to deal with is to change GUI.
The biggest issue that the newcomers had with the TclTk GUI (and that was solved in wxGUI) was
- "why the map is not displayed when I load it into gis manager?"
All of this made starting with GRASS on Mac unexpectedly more difficult than on MSWindows.

At this point our semester has already started so I will have to deal with it , and if I understand
the process correctly, 6.4 can be released with TclTk as default but with MSW and Mac binaries packaged
with wxGUI as default. Of course, I would much prefer if the release was with wxGUI as default.

I don't have enough expertise on ctypes but we have troubles with it on our enterprise linux
when compiling, but that is just a local problem,

Helena

On Aug 18, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Markus Neteler wrote:

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton@asu.edu> wrote:

On Aug 17, 2010, at 11:24 PM, <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

...

I have to agree with Hamish here. We have delayed for over a year. Getting GRASS to run robustly on Windows is worth it. But I'm not convinced that moving ctypes into 6.4 would be all that easy. Watching the issues for Windows compiling of GRASS 7 is worrisome in this regard. 6.4 works fine as is now. Let's release it and make it a bit better with 6.4.1

Please also post your opinion about (Mac, Linux):
- Release 6.4.0 with TclTK default GUI and switch in 6.4.1 to wxGUI as default;
- Do first RC7 with wxGUI as default, then release 6.4.0, don't change
with 6.4.1.
?

Markus
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William_Kyngesburye · August 18, 2010, 7:23pm

I'll follow whatever is decided. I probably don't need to set a default GRASS_GUI in the Mac startup (just let init.sh handle the default), except that I do need to make *some* assumption about a setting to work around an application focus issue in OSX Tiger.

I'll see if I can figure out a less intrusive test for the GUI setting.

On Aug 18, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Helena Mitasova wrote:

as Hamish has noted the choice of the default GUI is decided by whoever does the binary package (?).
So my plea was pretty much for William to make wxGUI default in his Mac binary.
People who run linux or compile GRASS from source are generally used to customizing so that is
not so much an issue. It is really for newcomers who download GRASS binary and start GRASS
and then the first thing they have to deal with is to change GUI.
The biggest issue that the newcomers had with the TclTk GUI (and that was solved in wxGUI) was
- "why the map is not displayed when I load it into gis manager?"
All of this made starting with GRASS on Mac unexpectedly more difficult than on MSWindows.

At this point our semester has already started so I will have to deal with it , and if I understand
the process correctly, 6.4 can be released with TclTk as default but with MSW and Mac binaries packaged
with wxGUI as default. Of course, I would much prefer if the release was with wxGUI as default.

I don't have enough expertise on ctypes but we have troubles with it on our enterprise linux
when compiling, but that is just a local problem,

Helena

-----
William Kyngesburye <kyngchaos*at*kyngchaos*dot*com>
http://www.kyngchaos.com/

"Mon Dieu! but they are all alike. Cheating, murdering, lying, fighting, and all for things that the beasts of the jungle would not deign to possess - money to purchase the effeminate pleasures of weaklings. And yet withal bound down by silly customs that make them slaves to their unhappy lot while firm in the belief that they be the lords of creation enjoying the only real pleasures of existence....

- the wisdom of Tarzan

cmbarton · August 18, 2010, 8:10pm

While I echo some of Helena's sentiments, I find that (surprisingly) even some of my students still prefer the TclTk interface of the wxPython one. That aside, it doesn't bother me if TclTk comes as a default on Mac and Linux, as this gives people a very smooth transition into the new GUI. They can easily turn it on as the default when they are ready, but they can start out with what they are more used to with prior versions.

For MS Windows there really hasn't been a widely used prior version. So starting out with wxPython will make future updates easier.

Beyond this, the Mac version works fine. TclTk nviz is a richer environment than the embedded wxPython one. The wxPython digitizing module works well. AFAICT, the rest works fine too.

Michael
____________________
C. Michael Barton
Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Arizona State University

voice: 480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-727-9746 (CSDC)
fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC), 480-727-0709 (CSDC)
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu

On Aug 18, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Helena Mitasova wrote:

as Hamish has noted the choice of the default GUI is decided by whoever does the binary package (?).
So my plea was pretty much for William to make wxGUI default in his Mac binary.
People who run linux or compile GRASS from source are generally used to customizing so that is
not so much an issue. It is really for newcomers who download GRASS binary and start GRASS
and then the first thing they have to deal with is to change GUI.
The biggest issue that the newcomers had with the TclTk GUI (and that was solved in wxGUI) was
- "why the map is not displayed when I load it into gis manager?"
All of this made starting with GRASS on Mac unexpectedly more difficult than on MSWindows.

At this point our semester has already started so I will have to deal with it , and if I understand
the process correctly, 6.4 can be released with TclTk as default but with MSW and Mac binaries packaged
with wxGUI as default. Of course, I would much prefer if the release was with wxGUI as default.

I don't have enough expertise on ctypes but we have troubles with it on our enterprise linux
when compiling, but that is just a local problem,

Helena

On Aug 18, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Markus Neteler wrote:

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton@asu.edu> wrote:

On Aug 17, 2010, at 11:24 PM, <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

...

I have to agree with Hamish here. We have delayed for over a year. Getting GRASS to run robustly on Windows is worth it. But I'm not convinced that moving ctypes into 6.4 would be all that easy. Watching the issues for Windows compiling of GRASS 7 is worrisome in this regard. 6.4 works fine as is now. Let's release it and make it a bit better with 6.4.1

Please also post your opinion about (Mac, Linux):
- Release 6.4.0 with TclTK default GUI and switch in 6.4.1 to wxGUI as default;
- Do first RC7 with wxGUI as default, then release 6.4.0, don't change
with 6.4.1.
?

Markus
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grass-dev mailing list
grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org
grass-dev Info Page

Nikos_Alexandris1 · August 19, 2010, 7:19am

(apologies for sneaking in a developer's discussion)

Helena Mitasova wrote:

The biggest issue that the newcomers had with the TclTk GUI (and that was
solved in wxGUI) was - "why the map is not displayed when I load it into
gis manager?"

fwiw, this was among others (actually after dealing with the location/mapset
stuff) one big question mark for me when I saw for the first time TclTk GUI
(~5 years ago). Did not understand much back then, turned away from GRASS as
not being comparable to other tools and only came back in 2007.

Nikos

marisn · August 20, 2010, 8:13pm

I got similar expierience with my students during last spring - those,
who where able to wrap their minds around GRASS concepts, found old
TCL/Tk GUI to be faster and thus better than Wx one on Windows. Some
issues they hit then now are solved, still wxgui doesn't perform as
good as tcl/tk one (can I select multiple maps at once?). TCL/Tk one
has (serious) issues and wx one is way to go, still not yet today.

As a developer I would vote "no" for GUI change.
As of ctypes - if it delays release, then also "no" - it has been too
long release cycle. There are some other more important problems than
ctypes (v.buffer issues etc.).

Just my 0.02,
Maris.

2010/8/18, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton@asu.edu>:

While I echo some of Helena's sentiments, I find that (surprisingly) even
some of my students still prefer the TclTk interface of the wxPython one.
That aside, it doesn't bother me if TclTk comes as a default on Mac and
Linux, as this gives people a very smooth transition into the new GUI. They
can easily turn it on as the default when they are ready, but they can start
out with what they are more used to with prior versions.

For MS Windows there really hasn't been a widely used prior version. So
starting out with wxPython will make future updates easier.

Beyond this, the Mac version works fine. TclTk nviz is a richer environment
than the embedded wxPython one. The wxPython digitizing module works well.
AFAICT, the rest works fine too.

Michael
____________________
C. Michael Barton
Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Arizona State University

voice: 480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-727-9746 (CSDC)
fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC), 480-727-0709 (CSDC)
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu

martinl · August 23, 2010, 3:07pm

Hi,

2010/8/18 Helena Mitasova <hmitaso@unity.ncsu.edu>:

as Hamish has noted the choice of the default GUI is decided by whoever does the binary package (?).

the default (or initial) GUI is set in init.sh [1]. The packager can
include rc file to overwrite the settings. My suggestion is to change
the default GUI directly in init.sh. Changing this variable between
6.4.0 and 6.4.1 seems to big quite big change when considering
releasing policy.

Martin

[1] http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/browser/grass/branches/releasebranch_6_4/lib/init/init.sh#L28

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa

neteler · August 23, 2010, 3:29pm

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Martin Landa <landa.martin@gmail.com> wrote:

2010/8/18 Helena Mitasova <hmitaso@unity.ncsu.edu>:
...
My suggestion is to change
the default GUI directly in init.sh. Changing this variable between
6.4.0 and 6.4.1 seems to big quite big change when considering
releasing policy.

Additionally it is a pain to prepare tutorial - you don't want to replicate
everything with then quickly outdating screenshots for Mac + Linux users
when a new GUI is there and already default on winGRASS...

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 5:26 AM, Hamish <hamish_b@yahoo.com> wrote:
...

Finally, for the FOSS4G 2010 OSGeo Live GIS disc I have packaged it with
~/.grassrc6 containing GRASS_GUI=wxpython, so there Linux starts with
the wxGUI.

At this point we should do it for the rest of the users, too. I'd
really like to avoid to
be flooded with messages of "where is the new GUI??" content since the
standard Linux distros will package whatever is set in the software.

Markus