[GRASS-dev] 6.4.0 never-ending story

Hi all,

I wonder if we can release 6.4.0, some dates

last stable: 6.2.0 - 2006/10/31

6.4.0 story:

rc1 - 2008/12/23
...
rc5 - 2009/06/09

This is absolutely *unacceptable*, after one year from rc1 the final
release is not ready. It's not good sign.

I know that everyone is doing his/her best. We just need to be a bit
realistic and bear in mind manpower of the development team.

I just wonder about bugs which are marked as blockers for some months.
If nobody is going to fixed them they cannot be marked as blockers.
Then reporter should find someone to fix them, at the end the rc-stage
takes one year...

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Martin Landa <landa.martin@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I wonder if we can release 6.4.0, some dates

last stable: 6.2.0 - 2006/10/31

6.4.0 story:

rc1 - 2008/12/23
...
rc5 - 2009/06/09

This is absolutely *unacceptable*,

I agree, but...

after one year from rc1 the final
release is not ready. It's not good sign.

well: in my opinion the RC1 has been prepared too early.
It was premature to think that we are close to a release in
December 2008. Anyway...

I know that everyone is doing his/her best. We just need to be a bit
realistic and bear in mind manpower of the development team.

I just wonder about bugs which are marked as blockers for some months.

http://trac.osgeo.org/grass/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&group=type&priority=blocker&priority=critical&milestone=6.4.0&order=priority

If nobody is going to fixed them they cannot be marked as blockers.
Then reporter should find someone to fix them, at the end the rc-stage
takes one year...

I see:
A) winGRASS related:

* 580 WinGRASS: $GISBASE/etc/gui/scripts/ require something like $(EXE) to run
  -> status unclear to me

* 759 r.patch non-functional in WinGRASS 6.4 svn on Vista
  -> awaiting guru comment

* 809 v.db.addtable consistently fails in winGrass
  -> apparently not reproducable?

* 843 v.digit broken on new WinGrass release
  -> contains a suggestion

B) Misc
* 72 PNG driver: boundary rendering is off by one pixel
  -> awaiting guru comment

* 384 wxGUI: vdigit crashes on a big map
  -> who can confirm?

* 461 v.to.db crashes on a shapefile connected with v.external
-> still valid?

I personally vote for going ahead and publishing this week RC6
and after 1-2 weeks (really) the final version. A lot of patches
should go into 6.4.1 then which are already piling up.

Markus

Hi,

2010/1/5 Markus Neteler <neteler@osgeo.org>:

[...]

I personally vote for going ahead and publishing this week RC6
and after 1-2 weeks (really) the final version. A lot of patches
should go into 6.4.1 then which are already piling up.

I agree with you.

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Markus Neteler <neteler@osgeo.org> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Martin Landa <landa.martin@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if we can release 6.4.0,

...

I personally vote for going ahead and publishing this week RC6
and after 1-2 weeks (really) the final version. A lot of patches
should go into 6.4.1 then which are already piling up.

More opinions? Here some of the the last 30-days contributors from
trac/timeline who could have an opinion:

aghisla, cmbarton, cnielsen, epatton, glynn, hamish, hellik, huhabla, jarekj71
marisn, mmetz, wegmann, ...

:slight_smile:

Markus

On Tue, 2010-01-05 at 22:15 +0100, Markus Neteler wrote:

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Markus Neteler <neteler@osgeo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Martin Landa <landa.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I wonder if we can release 6.4.0,
...
> I personally vote for going ahead and publishing this week RC6
> and after 1-2 weeks (really) the final version. A lot of patches
> should go into 6.4.1 then which are already piling up.

More opinions? Here some of the the last 30-days contributors from
trac/timeline who could have an opinion:

aghisla, cmbarton, cnielsen, epatton, glynn, hamish, hellik, huhabla, jarekj71
marisn, mmetz, wegmann, ...

:slight_smile:

+1 for me. I can verify tickets, but can't promise about modifying
code :slight_smile:

all the best,
Anne

Markus
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grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev

IMHO it is much worse for the long term reputation of the software/us to
ship 6.4.0 on windows with front-visible stuff broken than it is to
delay. For brand new users a lot hinges on first impressions..
and really, in the last months we have made a lot of progress on that.

so yeah, the delay is frustrating, but we are all busy & stuff is
regularly improving to the point where we can say that this release will
be closer to a x.y.1 than a x.y.0.

Michael:

> A big blocker was fixed yesterday - v.delauany broken on Mac and
> Windows.

(everyone needs to test the heck out of it now of course)

Markus:

I see:
A) winGRASS related:

* 580 WinGRASS: $GISBASE/etc/gui/scripts/ require something
like $(EXE) to run
  -> status unclear to me

hopefully now fixed in the last 24 hours.

* 759 r.patch non-functional in WinGRASS 6.4 svn on Vista
  -> awaiting guru comment

Michael:

> This is due to security routines on *some* Vista systems.

I'm not totally convinced of our analysis of that (see my last comments
in the bug report). but if the work-around does the trick that's good
enough for the release notes.

* 809 v.db.addtable consistently fails in winGrass
  -> apparently not reproducable?

Michael:

> This is caused by the scripting issues above IIRC.

I'm pretty sure it will be something else actually.

.. v.db.droptable is not in the wx menu system??

I just found that v.db.droptable fails with a not quoting spaces-in-
pathnames bug. curly brackets with ${path with spaces} is not enough
to protect it when used as a command line argument!
Also MS Windows requires that GIS_OPT_ and GIS_FLAG_ names be in caps.

hopefully now fixed in SVN. all v.db. and db. scripts need testing,
they were added after the great shell script quoting audit.

there was another failure with grep:

grep '...' | cut -f1 -d:

but when the filename starts with C: you get "C" instead of the filename.

(`grep -l` is probably more appropriate there, but I'm not sure if it's
portable)

* 843 v.digit broken on new WinGrass release
  -> contains a suggestion

Maris and Glynn are working to resolve this. Seems plausible that it
will be backported and ready for final testing by next week.

B) Misc
* 72 PNG driver: boundary rendering is off by one
pixel
  -> awaiting guru comment

Michael:

> Also only noticeable in special circumstances.

mmph. I notice it all the time. But but appears I'm the only one who does
& it makes cringe, and I haven't had the time to spend the hours on it,
so it's not a blocker. I just think it sucks whenever I want to do any
really professional hardcopy output I've got to touch it up in the gimp.

* 384 wxGUI: vdigit crashes on a big map
  -> who can confirm?

... ?

* 461 v.to.db crashes on a shapefile connected with
v.external
-> still valid?

... ?

I personally vote for going ahead and publishing this week RC6

My vote is to wait for the v.digit stuff to get sorted out, and as
soon as it is cut the RC.

Hamish

Markus Neteler wrote:

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Markus Neteler <neteler@osgeo.org> wrote:
  

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Martin Landa <landa.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
    

I wonder if we can release 6.4.0,
      

...
  

I personally vote for going ahead and publishing this week RC6
and after 1-2 weeks (really) the final version. A lot of patches
should go into 6.4.1 then which are already piling up.
    
More opinions? Here some of the the last 30-days contributors from
trac/timeline who could have an opinion:

aghisla, cmbarton, cnielsen, epatton, glynn, hamish, hellik, huhabla, jarekj71
marisn, mmetz, wegmann, ...
  

+1 from me.

For the final version I would very much like to see a reasonably stable Windows version, and it seems realistic to get this out soon.

Markus M

Hamish wrote:

Michael:
  

A big blocker was fixed yesterday - v.delauany broken on Mac and
Windows.
      
(everyone needs to test the heck out of it now of course)
  

Suggested testing in spearfish:
start with the reduced archsites vector provided by Michael, 11 points:
https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/attachment/ticket/660/archsites11.zip

next the full archsites map, 25 points, then bugsites, 90 points

In the North Carolina dataset, you could test with elev_lid792_bepts, 118,716 points

If everything is fine so far, then generate 3 million random points and test that. Be aware that the output vector will be very large if area output is requested, rather use v.delaunay -l to get only lines.

In all test, v.delaunay should be run with --verbose in order to be able to follow the steps. The Delaunay triangulation should always finish within seconds, for millions of points < 1 min, whereas topology building can take some time.

  

* 759 r.patch non-functional in WinGRASS 6.4 svn on Vista
  -> awaiting guru comment
    

Michael:
  

This is due to security routines on *some* Vista systems.
      
I'm not totally convinced of our analysis of that (see my last comments
in the bug report). but if the work-around does the trick that's good
enough for the release notes.
  

The currently best guess is that this is the Vista UAC problem. Provide a comment and tips for Vista UAC in a prominent place for the release?

* 843 v.digit broken on new WinGrass release
  -> contains a suggestion
    
Maris and Glynn are working to resolve this. Seems plausible that it will be backported and ready for final testing by next week.
  

One of the vector digitizers *must* work for the final release. The wxdigitizer is a fairly new feature and IMHO should not be a blocker. That said, I personally use only the wxdigitizer and no longer v.digit.

  

* 384 wxGUI: vdigit crashes on a big map
  -> who can confirm?
    

Testing here with output of v.delaunay for elev_lid792_bepts (237,392 areas), it is not exactly crashing, it is forever busy with something. Building topology with v.build takes here about 5 minutes, the wxdigitizer needed more than 30 minutes just to display the map. When exiting the wxdigitizer, topology was built by the wxdigitizer, but much slower, factor >10, so I killed the wxdigitizer. Something in the wxdigitizer causes a serious slowdown that can appear like a crash because nothing is happening. That was on Linux 64 bit.

  

* 461 v.to.db crashes on a shapefile connected with
v.external
-> still valid?
    

I think so because attribute queries are not possible on OGR vectors connected with v.external (most OGR vector layers don't have a grass-like key column). I think Martin L fixed that in grass7.

  

I personally vote for going ahead and publishing this week RC6
    
My vote is to wait for the v.digit stuff to get sorted out, and as
soon as it is cut the RC.
  

The wx location wizard is still not working properly, I still can't specify UTM zone. If the wxGUI is supposed to be stable, that should IMO get fixed before the final release. This is work in progress, ticket #842.

my 2c,

Markus M

Markus Neteler wrote:

Martin Landa wrote:
  

Hi all,

I wonder if we can release 6.4.0

I see:
A) winGRASS related:

* 580 WinGRASS: $GISBASE/etc/gui/scripts/ require something like $(EXE) to run
  -> status unclear to me

* 759 r.patch non-functional in WinGRASS 6.4 svn on Vista
  -> awaiting guru comment

* 809 v.db.addtable consistently fails in winGrass
  -> apparently not reproducable?

* 843 v.digit broken on new WinGrass release
  -> contains a suggestion

B) Misc
* 72 PNG driver: boundary rendering is off by one pixel
  -> awaiting guru comment

* 384 wxGUI: vdigit crashes on a big map
  -> who can confirm?

* 461 v.to.db crashes on a shapefile connected with v.external
-> still valid?
  

Attribute table operations (query, upload values) are still not possible in grass7 for OGR vector layers that don't have a key column, i.e. for most OGR-supported formats. Still valid for both v.external and direct OGR link.

Markus M

Markus Metz wrote:

For the final version I would very much like to see a reasonably stable
Windows version, and it seems realistic to get this out soon.

"Stable Windows version" or "released soon". Choose one.

The Windows version is hampered by a lack of Windows developers. Most
of the Windows development is being done by people who use Linux or
MacOSX as their main platform and occasionaly build and test on
Windows as a favour to Windows users.

It's also hampered by a tendency for developers to try to "paper over"
Windows problems with quick hacks rather than getting to the root of
the problem and developing robust solutions.

Ultimately, a *stable* Windows version probably means a stable version
of 7.0. In 6.x, the Windows version will inevitably be a "best effort"
solution.

--
Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

Hamish wrote:

> * 843 v.digit broken on new WinGrass release
> -> contains a suggestion

Maris and Glynn are working to resolve this. Seems plausible that it
will be backported and ready for final testing by next week.

FWIW, I've changed 6.5 as I consider appropriate, i.e. removed
$(FORMLIB) and sync'd generate.c to lib/form's version.

--
Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

Markus Metz wrote:

>> * 759 r.patch non-functional in WinGRASS 6.4 svn on Vista
>> -> awaiting guru comment
>>
> Michael:
>
>>> This is due to security routines on *some* Vista systems.
>>>
>
> I'm not totally convinced of our analysis of that (see my last comments
> in the bug report). but if the work-around does the trick that's good
> enough for the release notes.

The currently best guess is that this is the Vista UAC problem. Provide
a comment and tips for Vista UAC in a prominent place for the release?

FWIW, I don't consider that to be a particularly good guess. r.patch
doesn't appear to be doing anything remotely out of the ordinary.

Has anyone considered that "patch" might be triggering an anti-virus
rule? More generally, has anyone who can actually reproduce this tried
to perform any meaningful investigation (e.g. checking system logs)?

--
Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

"Stable Windows version" or "released soon". Choose one.

The Windows version is hampered by a lack of Windows developers. Most
of the Windows development is being done by people who use Linux or
MacOSX as their main platform and occasionaly build and test on
Windows as a favour to Windows users.

It's also hampered by a tendency for developers to try to "paper over"
Windows problems with quick hacks rather than getting to the root of
the problem and developing robust solutions.

In which way is the Windows development approach different?

Are you lacking only man power or also the neccessary software for
development on Windows?

Regards,
Timmie

(everyone needs to test the heck out of it now of course)
  

Suggested testing in spearfish:
start with the reduced archsites vector provided by Michael, 11 points:
https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/attachment/ticket/660/archsites11.zip

next the full archsites map, 25 points, then bugsites, 90 points

In the North Carolina dataset, you could test with elev_lid792_bepts,
118,716 points

If everything is fine so far, then generate 3 million random points and
test that. Be aware that the output vector will be very large if area
output is requested, rather use v.delaunay -l to get only lines.

In all test, v.delaunay should be run with --verbose in order to be able
to follow the steps. The Delaunay triangulation should always finish
within seconds, for millions of points < 1 min, whereas topology
building can take some time.

Could this testing be automised?
There could be a Menu entry in the Help menu of the GUI:

-> Contribute
  -> Test GRASS
  -> Write WIKI documentation

When the user hits "Test GRASS" a series of tests is run an logged to a
file.
This could be sent to the developer mailing list or entered in trac
somewhere.

Just an idea.

Tim Michelsen wrote:

> "Stable Windows version" or "released soon". Choose one.
>
> The Windows version is hampered by a lack of Windows developers. Most
> of the Windows development is being done by people who use Linux or
> MacOSX as their main platform and occasionaly build and test on
> Windows as a favour to Windows users.
>
> It's also hampered by a tendency for developers to try to "paper over"
> Windows problems with quick hacks rather than getting to the root of
> the problem and developing robust solutions.

In which way is the Windows development approach different?

It's different in that (AFAIK) we don't have anyone who uses Windows
as their preferred development platform. All of GRASS' active
developers use either Linux or MacOSX.

However, most of us at least have access to Windows systems.
Occasionally someone will compile the latest sources on Windows and
(try to) fix build errors and known bugs.

However, trying to develop on Windows tends to be tiring. cmd.exe and
the Windows console are primitive compared to their Unix equivalents,
and Windows ports of the Unix tools always have quirks, flaws and
rough edges. And being infinitely more familiar with Unix than Windows
probably accounts for a fair amount of the hassle.

Are you lacking only man power or also the neccessary software for
development on Windows?

Manpower. All of the software required is free (Windows builds use
MinGW and MSys), although getting all of the pieces in place can be
time-consuming.

--
Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

Glynn Clements wrote:

Markus Metz wrote:

For the final version I would very much like to see a reasonably stable Windows version, and it seems realistic to get this out soon.
    

The Windows version is hampered by a lack of Windows developers. Most
of the Windows development is being done by people who use Linux or
MacOSX as their main platform and occasionaly build and test on
Windows as a favour to Windows users.

It's also hampered by a tendency for developers to try to "paper over"
Windows problems with quick hacks rather than getting to the root of
the problem and developing robust solutions.
  

I am willing to help and to develop robust solutions where I can (C modules), but I have only XP, not Vista, so I can't fix Vista-specific problems. Can you make a little list of these quick hacks that need to be re-evaluated? Maybe just re-open the corresponding tickets?

Markus M