[GRASS-dev] Comment regarding PSC election

GRASS GIS GRASS GIS developer
1

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to make a comment regarding the ongoing PSC election.

I got to know how the whole process works only the past days and I must say I’m rather disappointed. I was happy to see that also users could vote as Nikos stated in his first email, but then that info was rectified. I read the emails of grass-psc discussing the matter and also the wiki.

This is my personal opinion and no more than that, but I just think it is a bit unfair that for not having svn writing access I’m not able to vote. I don’t understand how, as user, I’m entitled to nominate a person for PSC, but then, I cannot vote. I mean, there are several people with writing access that have remained inactive for a long time (no contributions to svn, no answering emails, no commenting on tickets or whatsoever), and IMHO, while not a developer, I’ve been pretty active the past 2-3 years. This is the first time I don’t see/feel the community spirit that I’ve always praised GRASS for and that was one of the main reasons why I involved myself in it and spread the love for the project everywhere I went… and that’s sad from my point of view.

Anyway, sorry to bother with this (maybe) biased opinion/feeling, I just needed to express it. Perhaps in the future, voting could be optional for users, dunno…

Thanks so much to all of you for making GRASS GIS the great software it is :slight_smile:

Best,
Vero

2

Dear all

on-sight, as Nikos, I share Vero's skepsis, concerns and feelings. I
support that there is still time to re-consider and, given we have a
safe voting system available, community members should be eligible to vote.

As CRO, trying not to confuse my roles (community member vs. CRO), I
tried to clearly adhere to the "any community member can participate"
principle (as it can be extracted from the first announcement).

However, the result of the long discussion in the grass-psc mailing
list, had to be adopted. A discussion which I simply did not read
early, before the first announcement.

What now?

As CRO, I propose the following, so as to not fall in a new open-ended
discussion (while we should also mind that the election process started and
the nomination phase is on-going):

i) if the lists receive publicly more supporters of Vero's view, and the
majority of current psc members are ok with it, we should open the
voting eligibility to everyone with an account at grass-user
or grass-dev.

ii) allow for community members, subscribed to grass-user or grass-dev,
to send directly to the CRO a request for voting permission. The CRO
will add the requested name and e-mail address to the list of voters.

(
There is still time before the voting phase!
The voting will take place with an invitation via e-mail, through
Helios' safe platform. [0]
)

iii) keep this discussion "alive" for the next election and move on with
the current process as is, so as to not endanger the natural flow of the current
election.

Best regards, Nikos or/and GRASS-GIS' CRO.
--

[0] https://vote.heliosvoting.org/privacy

--%<---
* Veronica Andreo <veroandreo@gmail.com> [2016-07-25 19:26:53 +0200]:

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to make a comment regarding the ongoing PSC election.

I got to know how the whole process works only the past days and I must say
I'm rather disappointed. I was happy to see that also users could vote as
Nikos stated in his first email, but then that info was rectified. I read
the emails of grass-psc discussing the matter and also the wiki.

This is my personal opinion and no more than that, but I just think it is a
bit unfair that for not having svn writing access I'm not able to vote. I
don't understand how, as user, I'm entitled to nominate a person for PSC,
but then, I cannot vote. I mean, there are several people with writing
access that have remained inactive for a long time (no contributions to
svn, no answering emails, no commenting on tickets or whatsoever), and
IMHO, while not a developer, I've been pretty active the past 2-3 years.
This is the first time I don't see/feel the community spirit that I've
always praised GRASS for and that was one of the main reasons why I
involved myself in it and spread the love for the project everywhere I
went... and that's sad from my point of view.

Anyway, sorry to bother with this (maybe) biased opinion/feeling, I just
needed to express it. Perhaps in the future, voting could be optional for
users, dunno...

Thanks so much to all of you for making GRASS GIS the great software it is
:slight_smile:

Best,
Vero

3

On 25 July 2016 at 19:26, Veronica Andreo <veroandreo@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everyone,

Hi Vero,

This is my personal opinion and no more than that, but I just think it is a
bit unfair that for not having svn writing access I'm not able to vote. I
don't understand how, as user, I'm entitled to nominate a person for PSC,
but then, I cannot vote. I mean, there are several people with writing
access that have remained inactive for a long time (no contributions to svn,
no answering emails, no commenting on tickets or whatsoever), and IMHO,
while not a developer, I've been pretty active the past 2-3 years. This is
the first time I don't see/feel the community spirit that I've always
praised GRASS for and that was one of the main reasons why I involved myself
in it and spread the love for the project everywhere I went... and that's
sad from my point of view.

I understand that you would like to votes, and I think you should
vote, but some rules should be present, something like 18 to vote (at
least in Italy)
Maybe you could ask for svn addons access, I think PSC could approve
this, you worked for documentation and you could help also in
translation.

Thanks so much to all of you for making GRASS GIS the great software it is
:slight_smile:

Best,
Vero

--
ciao
Luca

www.lucadelu.org

4

Hello Nikos, Lu

Thanks for your answers :slight_smile:

I didn’t intend to create any mess neither disrupt nor put in danger the ongoing election process, but to merely express my opinion. I’m sorry if I made a mess by doing so. It’s a pity that the matter didn’t reach dev or user lists before so I could have said it earlier, though I understand not everything is to be discussed publicly.

Yes, Lu, I understand there must be rules, of course… But that doesn’t mean they are always fair/inclusive or that one has to agree with all of them or that they cannot change in the future (I passed 18 long ago :))

I could also ask for add-ons writing access, but even if I was granted that, it would feel like fake… since indeed I’ve never contributed an add-on. I don’t think it is wise either to inflate developer community with ppl that have not contributed an add-on, and that would not even be fair to those that have indeed done so. I would just like to have the right to vote as the (bothersome) user I am… I mean, maybe I’m the only one, dunno, but if not interested or committed to the project why would someone else or anyone in any case want to involve him/herself into this? :stuck_out_tongue:

So, in conclusion, not to make it endless, it would be great if upon request/approval users could vote either in this occasion or in future elections… GRASS is shipped with contributors and contributors-extra files, maybe those are good starting points, no? :slight_smile:

Thanks a lot!

Best,
Vero

···

El jul. 25, 2016 10:41 PM, “Luca Delucchi” <lucadeluge@gmail.com> escribió:

On 25 July 2016 at 19:26, Veronica Andreo <veroandreo@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everyone,

Hi Vero,

This is my personal opinion and no more than that, but I just think it is a
bit unfair that for not having svn writing access I’m not able to vote. I
don’t understand how, as user, I’m entitled to nominate a person for PSC,
but then, I cannot vote. I mean, there are several people with writing
access that have remained inactive for a long time (no contributions to svn,
no answering emails, no commenting on tickets or whatsoever), and IMHO,
while not a developer, I’ve been pretty active the past 2-3 years. This is
the first time I don’t see/feel the community spirit that I’ve always
praised GRASS for and that was one of the main reasons why I involved myself
in it and spread the love for the project everywhere I went… and that’s
sad from my point of view.

I understand that you would like to votes, and I think you should
vote, but some rules should be present, something like 18 to vote (at
least in Italy)
Maybe you could ask for svn addons access, I think PSC could approve
this, you worked for documentation and you could help also in
translation.

Thanks so much to all of you for making GRASS GIS the great software it is
:slight_smile:

Best,
Vero

–
ciao
Luca

www.lucadelu.org

5

On 26/07/16 09:21, Veronica Andreo wrote:

Hello Nikos, Lu

Thanks for your answers :slight_smile:

I didn't intend to create any mess neither disrupt nor put in danger the
ongoing election process, but to merely express my opinion. I'm sorry if
I made a mess by doing so. It's a pity that the matter didn't reach dev
or user lists before so I could have said it earlier, though I
understand not everything is to be discussed publicly.

No mess at all. Your points are perfectly valid and merit discussion.

Yes, Lu, I understand there must be rules, of course... But that doesn't
mean they are always fair/inclusive or that one has to agree with all of
them or that they cannot change in the future (I passed 18 long ago :))

I could also ask for add-ons writing access, but even if I was granted
that, it would feel like fake... since indeed I've never contributed an
add-on. I don't think it is wise either to inflate developer community
with ppl that have not contributed an add-on, and that would not even be
fair to those that have indeed done so. I would just like to have the
right to vote as the (bothersome) user I am... I mean, maybe I'm the
only one, dunno, but if not interested or committed to the project why
would someone else or anyone in any case want to involve him/herself
into this? :stuck_out_tongue:

So, in conclusion, not to make it endless, it would be great if upon
request/approval users could vote either in this occasion or in future
elections... GRASS is shipped with contributors and contributors-extra
files, maybe those are good starting points, no? :slight_smile:

This is indeed the direction the PSC is thinking about right now.

The big question is obviously the definition of the community, and of its members. We don't have such a definition for GRASS at this stage (e.g. equivalent to the charter membership in OSGeo), and so the easiest (but as you highlight probably not the best) was to use svn-access as a proxy.

Thanks for being "bothersome" ! :wink:

Moritz

6

* Veronica Andreo <veroandreo@gmail.com> [2016-07-26 09:21:52 +0200]:

Hello Nikos, Lu

Thanks for your answers :slight_smile:

I didn't intend to create any mess neither disrupt nor put in danger the
ongoing election process, but to merely express my opinion. I'm sorry if I
made a mess by doing so. It's a pity that the matter didn't reach dev or
user lists before so I could have said it earlier, though I understand not
everything is to be discussed publicly.

Vero, expressing yourself, the way you did, in the public mailing
list(s), is a paradigm to mimic.

Thank You for doing so.

Nikos

[rest deleted]

7

This is no disruption or mess. These are important topics to continue discussing.

Michael Barton
School of Human Evolution &Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

…Sent from my iPad

···

El jul. 25, 2016 10:41 PM, “Luca Delucchi” <lucadeluge@gmail.com> escribió:

On 25 July 2016 at 19:26, Veronica Andreo <veroandreo@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everyone,

Hi Vero,

This is my personal opinion and no more than that, but I just think it is a
bit unfair that for not having svn writing access I’m not able to vote. I
don’t understand how, as user, I’m entitled to nominate a person for PSC,
but then, I cannot vote. I mean, there are several people with writing
access that have remained inactive for a long time (no contributions to svn,
no answering emails, no commenting on tickets or whatsoever), and IMHO,
while not a developer, I’ve been pretty active the past 2-3 years. This is
the first time I don’t see/feel the community spirit that I’ve always
praised GRASS for and that was one of the main reasons why I involved myself
in it and spread the love for the project everywhere I went… and that’s
sad from my point of view.

I understand that you would like to votes, and I think you should
vote, but some rules should be present, something like 18 to vote (at
least in Italy)
Maybe you could ask for svn addons access, I think PSC could approve
this, you worked for documentation and you could help also in
translation.

Thanks so much to all of you for making GRASS GIS the great software it is
:slight_smile:

Best,
Vero

–
ciao
Luca

www.lucadelu.org

8

(sorry for cross-posting)

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 12:05 AM, Markus Neteler <neteler@osgeo.org> wrote:

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton@asu.edu> wrote:

My perspective is that active contributors to the project should vote. How to define them is a
more complicated issue and one of the things that prompted the long email chain in the PCS IIRC.

Indeed....
Additionally, it is *very* complicated to define who is a community member.

Two options yet to consider:

- the ChangeLog contains some references to code contributors without
SVN core access, e.g.

...

In fact, all should have been added here:
https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/browser/grass/trunk/contributors.csv
but that file didn't get updated lately.

I have spent 1-2 hours on this now and updated the right file:
https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/browser/grass/trunk/contributors_extra.csv

to also reflect the last 5 years of contributions from people without
SVN write access.
This list of contributors should be considered by the CRO as part of
the voting group.

Please let us know if a name is still missing there.

Best,
Markus

9

2016-07-31 17:06 GMT-03:00 Markus Neteler <neteler@osgeo.org>:

(sorry for cross-posting)

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 12:05 AM, Markus Neteler <neteler@osgeo.org>
wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton@asu.edu>
wrote:
>> My perspective is that active contributors to the project should vote.
How to define them is a
>> more complicated issue and one of the things that prompted the long
email chain in the PCS IIRC.
>
> Indeed....
> Additionally, it is *very* complicated to define who is a community
member.
>
> Two options yet to consider:
>
> - the ChangeLog contains some references to code contributors without
> SVN core access, e.g.
...
> In fact, all should have been added here:
> https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/browser/grass/trunk/contributors.csv
> but that file didn't get updated lately.

I have spent 1-2 hours on this now and updated the right file:
https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/browser/grass/trunk/contributors_extra.csv

to also reflect the last 5 years of contributions from people without
SVN write access.
This list of contributors should be considered by the CRO as part of
the voting group.

This is great! Thank you so much, Markus!

Best,
Vero