[GRASS-dev] Re: GRASS-dev] gis icons

GRASS GRASS developer
1

On Jan 3, 2009, at 4:08 AM, <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org > wrote:

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:22:36 +0100
From: Robert Szczepanek <robert@szczepanek.pl>
Subject: [GRASS-dev] gis icons
To: grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org
Cc: Martin Landa <landa.martin@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1230931356.495e859cd5cdd@poczta.ceti.pl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2

Hi,

Icons for two main toolbars (wxpython interface) are ready for your comments. I
follow working on digitizing ones and others.
GIS icons theme design
More detailed list is located under "working draft" link.

One question to Martin - right cutted toolbar for map display. Do you know the
reason?
I compiled GRASS under Windows 2000 from latest SVN just to test interface.
That's why I didn't answered to your request
"is there someone (Marco?) who is going to prepare Windows installer
for RC1 with wxGUI support?"
As I remember Marco should start working with WinGRASS about 5th of January.

Robert,

I updated to see these icons in action after Martin installed them. I also took a look at the most recent pages on your icon web site. First, I want to thank you for creating these elegant icons. They give GRASS a fresh, unique, and highly professional look.

You asked for comments, so I looked closely especially at your comparison page and also at the icons at toolbar size. I'm on a MacBook Pro with a high resolution screen-though it's only 15". So this, along with older eyes (I am wearing my reading glasses, however) gives these a tough workout. Overall, the icons look great and the set is useable as is. However, here are some suggestions for a few tweaks. First, I voted for high-resolution and flat in the survey. The soft 3D look is really nice, but I worry that it is difficult to see some of the complex iconography. So some of my comments may not apply if you decide to go for higher-def imagery.

1. The size of the small action sub-icon in the lower right is fine for simple images like + and -, but it is hard to see more complex ones like redraw and export. Zoom last and zoom more are a bit hard to see, but easier than redraw and export.

2. Query would be easier to identify if you put a raster (and maybe vector) pattern under the arrow tip.

3. Element-add could use some informative imagery like you did with analyze rather than a box. The GRASS icon in wxPython has a small arrow and legend. Also, it would probably be good to add a north arrow to the legend icon as this is the only place to get a north arrow too.

4. I could learn * as new without much difficulty, though I tend to think of it as 'select' for some reason. On the other hand, I can't think of a better image for new.

5a. Load and save make perfect sense, but most people are accustomed to a folder rather than your more abstract circle. I'd suggest a big arrow (like you have) and little folder in the lower right, but this goes against your grammar of large item and small action icon. Maybe use your map-export.png idea and have a small down arrow for save, small up arrow for load, and small horizontal arrow (minus the circle as superfluous) for export??

5b. Save-as isn't easy to figure out. Once I know it, I get it, but it's not obvious. Arrow down into a document rather than a crooked down arrow?

6. Digitizing add various features. A plus is easier to understand right away than a *. This makes grammatical sense: add a boundary to a vector, etc. It also complements the '-' for delete/remove feature.

7. The imagery for add command layer is much more understandable than the current "gear", at least for me. But it's too small to see what it is. How about having the 'terminal' image fill the entire inner 'layer box' rather than be a 3rd box inside. Also, would black background and white letters be easier to see and understand as a terminal?

8. Need brighter colors on the otherwise very nice RGB-add (HIS-add is beautiful).

Thanks again for this great set of icons. IMHO, they should become the default for all future versions of GRASS.

Michael

2

Dear Michael,

I really appreciate your comments. They help me a lot.

First, I voted for high-resolution and flat in the survey. The soft 3D
look is really nice, but I worry that it is difficult to see some of
the complex iconography. So some of my comments may not apply if you
decide to go for higher-def imagery.

I don't want to go into details, but people are use to explicit explanations. If
some symbol is simple but new, 95% of users will say "interesting, but put in
the background flower and bicycle" :slight_smile:
Save-open actions is an excellent example. When I tried to simplify it to arrows
(which are element of traditional icons) and generalized symbol of place/object
to save, most of comments was in the direction "arrow is OK but add folder
icon or disk icon or DVD icon". And my point is - we don't have to show one
specific storage media. This way symbol becomes more scalable.
But sometimes it is just too hard to simplify.

1. The size of the small action sub-icon in the lower right is fine
for simple images like + and -, but it is hard to see more complex
ones like redraw and export. Zoom last and zoom more are a bit hard to
see, but easier than redraw and export.

That is why for blue sub-icons the area is bigger. By 1x1px, but bigger :slight_smile:
Maybe I should increase it, but it decreases space for icon itself.
[to consider]

2. Query would be easier to identify if you put a raster (and maybe
vector) pattern under the arrow tip.

See my initial comments :wink:

3. Element-add could use some informative imagery like you did with
analyze rather than a box. The GRASS icon in wxPython has a small
arrow and legend. Also, it would probably be good to add a north arrow
to the legend icon as this is the only place to get a north arrow too.

But 'element' stands for anything (alias nothing).
North arrow [to consider].

4. I could learn * as new without much difficulty, though I tend to
think of it as 'select' for some reason. On the other hand, I can't
think of a better image for new.

I had many problems with 'create'. This is n-th version. I agree it is very
similar to select/bookmark.

5a. Load and save make perfect sense, but most people are accustomed
to a folder rather than your more abstract circle. I'd suggest a big
arrow (like you have) and little folder in the lower right, but this
goes against your grammar of large item and small action icon. Maybe
use your map-export.png idea and have a small down arrow for save,
small up arrow for load, and small horizontal arrow (minus the circle
as superfluous) for export??

Just arrow is an interesting option. Or simple box like in sub-icons for save
and open.

5b. Save-as isn't easy to figure out. Once I know it, I get it, but
it's not obvious. Arrow down into a document rather than a crooked
down arrow?

I agree it's not obvious, but I do not like documents/folder in icons. Still
looking for better sign.

6. Digitizing add various features. A plus is easier to understand
right away than a *. This makes grammatical sense: add a boundary to a
vector, etc. It also complements the '-' for delete/remove feature.

Digitizing you usually create new objects. For me 'create' is not the same as
'add' [1]. The same is with delete and remove.
In other case of course we can use just + and -.

7. The imagery for add command layer is much more understandable than
the current "gear", at least for me. But it's too small to see what it
is. How about having the 'terminal' image fill the entire inner 'layer
box' rather than be a 3rd box inside. Also, would black background and
white letters be easier to see and understand as a terminal?

I almost don't use pure black/white, so contrast in this icon could be too big,
but I have to test it.

8. Need brighter colors on the otherwise very nice RGB-add (HIS-add is
beautiful).

Probably my design goes too far into Glamour style :slight_smile: but I like unsaturated
colors.

My goal for this weeks is to finish GRASS icons, but I write down carefully all
your comments and will test them.

Thank again for your very detailed description and patience.
Robert

[1] http://geoinformatics.fsv.cvut.cz/wiki/index.php
/Toolbar_icons_for_GIS_applications#Behind_the_scene_.E2.80.93_meaning_of_words_and_symbols

3

Robert thanks again for all your work. I look forward to using these and future versions of the icon set.

Michael

On Jan 4, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Robert Szczepanek wrote:

Dear Michael,

I really appreciate your comments. They help me a lot.

First, I voted for high-resolution and flat in the survey. The soft 3D
look is really nice, but I worry that it is difficult to see some of
the complex iconography. So some of my comments may not apply if you
decide to go for higher-def imagery.

I don't want to go into details, but people are use to explicit explanations. If
some symbol is simple but new, 95% of users will say "interesting, but put in
the background flower and bicycle" :slight_smile:
Save-open actions is an excellent example. When I tried to simplify it to arrows
(which are element of traditional icons) and generalized symbol of place/object
to save, most of comments was in the direction "arrow is OK but add folder
icon or disk icon or DVD icon". And my point is - we don't have to show one
specific storage media. This way symbol becomes more scalable.
But sometimes it is just too hard to simplify.

1. The size of the small action sub-icon in the lower right is fine
for simple images like + and -, but it is hard to see more complex
ones like redraw and export. Zoom last and zoom more are a bit hard to
see, but easier than redraw and export.

That is why for blue sub-icons the area is bigger. By 1x1px, but bigger :slight_smile:
Maybe I should increase it, but it decreases space for icon itself.
[to consider]

2. Query would be easier to identify if you put a raster (and maybe
vector) pattern under the arrow tip.

See my initial comments :wink:

3. Element-add could use some informative imagery like you did with
analyze rather than a box. The GRASS icon in wxPython has a small
arrow and legend. Also, it would probably be good to add a north arrow
to the legend icon as this is the only place to get a north arrow too.

But 'element' stands for anything (alias nothing).
North arrow [to consider].

4. I could learn * as new without much difficulty, though I tend to
think of it as 'select' for some reason. On the other hand, I can't
think of a better image for new.

I had many problems with 'create'. This is n-th version. I agree it is very
similar to select/bookmark.

5a. Load and save make perfect sense, but most people are accustomed
to a folder rather than your more abstract circle. I'd suggest a big
arrow (like you have) and little folder in the lower right, but this
goes against your grammar of large item and small action icon. Maybe
use your map-export.png idea and have a small down arrow for save,
small up arrow for load, and small horizontal arrow (minus the circle
as superfluous) for export??

Just arrow is an interesting option. Or simple box like in sub-icons for save
and open.

5b. Save-as isn't easy to figure out. Once I know it, I get it, but
it's not obvious. Arrow down into a document rather than a crooked
down arrow?

I agree it's not obvious, but I do not like documents/folder in icons. Still
looking for better sign.

6. Digitizing add various features. A plus is easier to understand
right away than a *. This makes grammatical sense: add a boundary to a
vector, etc. It also complements the '-' for delete/remove feature.

Digitizing you usually create new objects. For me 'create' is not the same as
'add' [1]. The same is with delete and remove.
In other case of course we can use just + and -.

7. The imagery for add command layer is much more understandable than
the current "gear", at least for me. But it's too small to see what it
is. How about having the 'terminal' image fill the entire inner 'layer
box' rather than be a 3rd box inside. Also, would black background and
white letters be easier to see and understand as a terminal?

I almost don't use pure black/white, so contrast in this icon could be too big,
but I have to test it.

8. Need brighter colors on the otherwise very nice RGB-add (HIS-add is
beautiful).

Probably my design goes too far into Glamour style :slight_smile: but I like unsaturated
colors.

My goal for this weeks is to finish GRASS icons, but I write down carefully all
your comments and will test them.

Thank again for your very detailed description and patience.
Robert

[1] http://geoinformatics.fsv.cvut.cz/wiki/index.php
/Toolbar_icons_for_GIS_applications#Behind_the_scene_.E2.80.93_meaning_of_words_and_symbols

4

On Jan 4, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Robert Szczepanek wrote:

6. Digitizing add various features. A plus is easier to understand
right away than a *. This makes grammatical sense: add a boundary to a
vector, etc. It also complements the '-' for delete/remove feature.

Digitizing you usually create new objects. For me 'create' is not the same as
'add' [1]. The same is with delete and remove.
In other case of course we can use just + and -.

One comment here. Technically, the "create" happens when you create a new vector file. Then you "add" or "remove" features from the file by digitizing or other means (e.g., you can add points or area centroids by other modules). Indeed you create the features, but you add them to the vector file. Perhaps, this is angels dancing on the head of a pin... :wink:

Michael

5

Cytowanie Michael Barton <michael.barton@asu.edu>:

On Jan 4, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Robert Szczepanek wrote:
>>
>> 6. Digitizing add various features. A plus is easier to understand
>> right away than a *. This makes grammatical sense: add a boundary
>> to a
>> vector, etc. It also complements the '-' for delete/remove feature.
>
> Digitizing you usually create new objects. For me 'create' is not
> the same as
> 'add' [1]. The same is with delete and remove.
> In other case of course we can use just + and -.

One comment here. Technically, the "create" happens when you create a
new vector file. Then you "add" or "remove" features from the file by
digitizing or other means (e.g., you can add points or area centroids
by other modules). Indeed you create the features, but you add them to
the vector file. Perhaps, this is angels dancing on the head of a
pin... :wink:

Michael

Real problem starts when you misunderstand delete and remove.
When applied e.g. to layer what final effect will be?
Will I destroy this layer or just remove from preview?
Create/add is just backwards consequence of that.
But I have also big doubts concerning importance of this issue.

Robert

6

On Jan 4, 2009, at 3:53 PM, Robert Szczepanek wrote:

Cytowanie Michael Barton <michael.barton@asu.edu>:

On Jan 4, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Robert Szczepanek wrote:

6. Digitizing add various features. A plus is easier to understand
right away than a *. This makes grammatical sense: add a boundary
to a
vector, etc. It also complements the '-' for delete/remove feature.

Digitizing you usually create new objects. For me 'create' is not
the same as
'add' [1]. The same is with delete and remove.
In other case of course we can use just + and -.

One comment here. Technically, the "create" happens when you create a
new vector file. Then you "add" or "remove" features from the file by
digitizing or other means (e.g., you can add points or area centroids
by other modules). Indeed you create the features, but you add them to
the vector file. Perhaps, this is angels dancing on the head of a
pin... :wink:

Michael

Real problem starts when you misunderstand delete and remove.
When applied e.g. to layer what final effect will be?
Will I destroy this layer or just remove from preview?
Create/add is just backwards consequence of that.
But I have also big doubts concerning importance of this issue.

This raises a good point. The opposite of create is delete/destroy, the opposite of add is remove (but not delete/destroy).

*/(red x in circle) for create/delete, +/- for add/remove?

Michael

7

> Real problem starts when you misunderstand delete and remove.
> When applied e.g. to layer what final effect will be?
> Will I destroy this layer or just remove from preview?
> Create/add is just backwards consequence of that.
> But I have also big doubts concerning importance of this issue.

This raises a good point. The opposite of create is delete/destroy,
the opposite of add is remove (but not delete/destroy).

*/(red x in circle) for create/delete, +/- for add/remove?

Right.
However this is only one of possible solutions.

Robert

8

Hello,
would it be possible to create high contrast versions of Your new
icons? There could be two icon sets instead of one - normal and high
contrast == everyone happy. At beginning such icon set probably could
be created by simply blasting up contrast and reducing number of
colours.

IANAA (I am not an artist),
Maris.

2009/1/5, Robert Szczepanek <robert@szczepanek.pl>:

I almost don't use pure black/white, so contrast in this icon could be too
big,
but I have to test it.

8. Need brighter colors on the otherwise very nice RGB-add (HIS-add is
beautiful).

Probably my design goes too far into Glamour style :slight_smile: but I like unsaturated
colors.

Robert

9

Complete GIS icons set for GRASS is ready.
http://www.szczepanek.pl/icons.grass/v.0.1/
Please include license text file from this page in source SVN folder.

Thank you very much for support and many valuable comments.
Modifications considering your comments and suggestions will be done in next
version of this theme.

Robert Szczepanek

10

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Robert Szczepanek <robert@szczepanek.pl> wrote:

Complete GIS icons set for GRASS is ready.
http://www.szczepanek.pl/icons.grass/v.0.1/
Please include license text file from this page in source SVN folder.

Thank you very much for support and many valuable comments.
Modifications considering your comments and suggestions will be done in next
version of this theme.

You have done an amazing work - congratulations!

Markus

11

Hi Robert,

2009/1/11 Robert Szczepanek <robert@szczepanek.pl>:

Complete GIS icons set for GRASS is ready.
http://www.szczepanek.pl/icons.grass/v.0.1/
Please include license text file from this page in source SVN folder.

done in 35335.

Thttp://svn.osgeo.org/grass/grass/trunk/gui/icons/grass2/LICENCE.TXT

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa *

12

sorry,

it should have been

http://svn.osgeo.org/grass/grass/trunk/gui/icons/grass2/LICENSE.TXT

2009/1/11 Martin Landa <landa.martin@gmail.com>:

Hi Robert,

2009/1/11 Robert Szczepanek <robert@szczepanek.pl>:

Complete GIS icons set for GRASS is ready.
http://www.szczepanek.pl/icons.grass/v.0.1/
Please include license text file from this page in source SVN folder.

done in 35335.

Thttp://svn.osgeo.org/grass/grass/trunk/gui/icons/grass2/LICENCE.TXT

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa *

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa *

13

Thanks Martin and Robert. The icons are really nice.

Michael

On Jan 11, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Martin Landa wrote:

sorry,

it should have been

http://svn.osgeo.org/grass/grass/trunk/gui/icons/grass2/LICENSE.TXT

2009/1/11 Martin Landa <landa.martin@gmail.com>:

Hi Robert,

2009/1/11 Robert Szczepanek <robert@szczepanek.pl>:

Complete GIS icons set for GRASS is ready.
GRASS GIS icons
Please include license text file from this page in source SVN folder.

done in 35335.

Thttp://svn.osgeo.org/grass/grass/trunk/gui/icons/grass2/LICENCE.TXT

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa *

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://gama.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa *