[GRASS-dev] trac management - was ticket #110

GRASS GRASS developer
,
1

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com> wrote:

Markus Neteler wrote:

[please respond in trac, grass-dev cannot post to trac]

Actually, I’d really prefer it if we could keep discussions on the
mailing list. trac can be updated when issues get resolved.

The issue is (here) that eg Even Rouault (GDAL developer) who responded to
the DBF ticket AFAIK does not read the grass-dev list,

There is an archive:
http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/grass-dev/

I know, I have maintained it for 10 years meanwhile.
The point is that non-subscribers won’t detect postings there
without being pointed to them.

likewise FrankW likely prefers tickets over scattered discussion in our archive.

We cannot expect people like him who follow 10+ projects in parallel
to voluntarily scan our archive.

Would it be possible for trac to automatically add a link for the
mailing-list thread to the ticket?

In theory yes:
http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/EmailtoTracScript

So far, I could not convince Frank to install it.

Right now, my grass-dev folder consists mostly of posts by “GRASS
GIS”, with no threading.

We can rename it to “GRASS trac” easily (in Admin). Makes more sense.

The point is that it doesn’t tell you who actually posted the message.
This makes it awkward to find a particular message in a long thread.

OK, now I get the point.

We have to check
http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/macro
http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/patch
http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/plugin
for a solution. We may not be the first to have this wish.

For me threading works. The headers contain the relevant tags:

All responses are treated as replies to the original report, rather
than as a reply to a specific message

OK, the same need to check trac modifications for a solution.

Markus

2

Markus Neteler wrote:

> > > > [please respond in trac, grass-dev cannot post to trac]
> > >
> > > Actually, I'd really prefer it if we could keep discussions on the
> > > mailing list. trac can be updated when issues get resolved.
> >
> >
> > The issue is (here) that eg Even Rouault (GDAL developer) who responded
> to
> > the DBF ticket AFAIK does not read the grass-dev list,
>
> There is an archive:
> http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/grass-dev/

I know, I have maintained it for 10 years meanwhile.
The point is that non-subscribers won't detect postings there
without being pointed to them.

Can the messages which trac sends to the list have the reporter's
address added to the To: or CC: fields? That way, they would normally
receive any follow-ups via email.

> <http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/grass-dev/&gt; > likewise FrankW likely
> prefers tickets over scattered discussion in our archive.

We cannot expect people like him who follow 10+ projects in parallel
to voluntarily scan our archive.

OTOH, requiring that discussions are conducted via trac for the
benefit of non-subscribers is going too far in the other direction,
IMHO.

> Would it be possible for trac to automatically add a link for the
> mailing-list thread to the ticket?

In theory yes:
http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/EmailtoTracScript

That would be ideal, as it would eliminate the need for developers to
conduct discussions via trac.

However, all I was actually asking about was having a link to the
archived email added to the trac page. That would at least allow
people to find the discussion easily.

I suspect that this isn't trivial, as the email probably doesn't
appear in the archive until after trac has finished handling the
submission. So it probably can't be done in the main trac script;
however, it might be possible for the list manager to identify emails
which originate from trac and lack an In-Reply-To: header, and add a
reply to the appropriate trac entry.

> > > Right now, my grass-dev folder consists mostly of posts by "GRASS
> > > GIS", with no threading.
> >
> >
> > We can rename it to "GRASS trac" easily (in Admin). Makes more sense.
>
>
> The point is that it doesn't tell you who actually posted the message.
> This makes it awkward to find a particular message in a long thread.

OK, now I get the point.

We have to check
http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/macro
http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/patch
http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/plugin
for a solution. We may not be the first to have this wish.

Probably not.

Since the web become popular, I've probably encountered hundreds of
web-based communication systems (online "forums", bug trackers, etc).
And in every single instance where I've tried to use them for an
actual discussion (as opposed to: post a request, get a reply, end of
discussion), I end up wondering if I'm the only person in the world
who uses email.

Because in all that time, I haven't found even one web-based system
that isn't substantially less convenient than email.

And even if those web-based systems were all perfect (which is
certainly not the case), the comparison is still between using dozens
of different web-based systems and using a single mail program which I
have been using for over 10 years, and am very familar with, have
customised extensively, and is fully integrated with my text editor,
shell, spell checker, file manager, manual browser, code browser, etc.

--
Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

3

On 14/04/08 01:00, Glynn Clements wrote:

Since the web become popular, I've probably encountered hundreds of
web-based communication systems (online "forums", bug trackers, etc). And in every single instance where I've tried to use them for an
actual discussion (as opposed to: post a request, get a reply, end of
discussion), I end up wondering if I'm the only person in the world
who uses email.

We're at least two :wink:

Because in all that time, I haven't found even one web-based system
that isn't substantially less convenient than email.

And even if those web-based systems were all perfect (which is
certainly not the case), the comparison is still between using dozens
of different web-based systems and using a single mail program which I
have been using for over 10 years, and am very familar with, have
customised extensively, and is fully integrated with my text editor,
shell, spell checker, file manager, manual browser, code browser, etc.

+1

Moritz

4

Markus:

> > For me threading works. The headers contain the relevant tags:

Glynn:

> All responses are treated as replies to the original report, rather
> than as a reply to a specific message

Markus:

OK, the same need to check trac modifications for a solution.

note that within Trac you can reply to individual posts, with jump
buttons in the top right corner of the message, so the information exists
within the Trac system. The challenge would be to enhance the trac mail
forwarding code to include those cues.

Keeping a full history of relevant info in the bug log itself is very
important, e.g. for going back to read the history of a long outstanding
bug in the old RT system, where mailing lists discussion is now long
forgotten and links to post #1234567 in the baylor.edu|itc.it|whatever
pipermail archives no longer work, and subject/date for the post was not
given.

It's a bit annoying (not to mention abusive) to have to have to manually
cut and paste someone else's useful m.l. answer into the trac system when
they could have done it themselves. you can always compose & mail your
answer in the email client and cut & paste that to trac; I don't much
like composing in web forms either. it's a similar issue to cross-posting
a question to multiple mailing lists and then have everyone else trying
to understand half a thread. Another way to think of it is the cost of
pasting it into the bug ticket is less than answering the exact same
question a second time a few months later. Which is a similar thing to
answering a ml question in a Wiki FAQ page then just posting the URL to
that in your ml reply.

I suppose it would be nice to recreate the functionality of the old RT
system, where a post from the ml server (From: grass-dev@, Subj: [Trac
#xyz], Originating IP: x.y.z.0 etc spam-proofing) would automatically end
up in the bug's log. But as we all know spam-proofing that is a lot of
work and never 100% successful. But RT did it, and so maybe Trac can be
set up to do it too. If we want that, I think it is up to us to research
and present a solution, rather than expect someone else to do that for
us.
In concept I wouldn't mind devoting some of our devel time to improving
trac if needed, to selfishly "give something back".

Hamish

ps- very good job on the seamless MediaWiki migration / upgrade guys.
only hiccup I found when updating URLs was a directory structure change
for deep-linked wiki JPEGs & PNGs; easily fixed (simplified).

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5

Glynn:

Can the messages which trac sends to the list have the reporter's
address added to the To: or CC: fields? That way, they would normally
receive any follow-ups via email.

note if you respond in the trac system you are automatically added to
that bug's cc list. so "tourist" posters can participate in that bug
"thread".
(aside: I am very please with the new ML's ability to only send me 1
email if it sees I am subscribed to the ML and am in the To or Cc field.
I think it is not possible, but it would be great if could do that too)

> We cannot expect people like him who follow 10+ projects in parallel
> to voluntarily scan our archive.

OTOH, requiring that discussions are conducted via trac for the
benefit of non-subscribers is going too far in the other direction,
IMHO.

hosting the thread in trac is also for the benefit of keeping the bug's
history clear. we are of course free to discuss the bug in depth in the
mailing list and only post highlights into the bug report. (which is the
solution we all seem to be after, be it by auto-cc or auto-URL)

> > Would it be possible for trac to automatically add a link for the
> > mailing-list thread to the ticket?
>
> In theory yes:
> http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/EmailtoTracScript

That would be ideal, as it would eliminate the need for developers to
conduct discussions via trac.

(what I was talking about re the old RT system in my last post)

However, all I was actually asking about was having a link to the
archived email added to the trac page. That would at least allow
people to find the discussion easily.

and add less tangential clutter to the bug report

I suspect that this isn't trivial, as the email probably doesn't
appear in the archive until after trac has finished handling the
submission. So it probably can't be done in the main trac script;
however, it might be possible for the list manager to identify emails
which originate from trac and lack an In-Reply-To: header, and add a
reply to the appropriate trac entry.

AFAIR of how the old system worked, the RT system was subscribed to
grass5#baylor,edu and would parse all incoming messages for [RT #1234] in
the subject line, then discard or apply as needed. As long as the RT
system is set up to only accept email directly from the OSGeo server
(with some sort of spoof-protection), the idea seems viable to me.

Since the web become popular, I've probably encountered hundreds of
web-based communication systems (online "forums", bug trackers, etc).
And in every single instance where I've tried to use them for an
actual discussion (as opposed to: post a request, get a reply, end of
discussion), I end up wondering if I'm the only person in the world
who uses email.

Because in all that time, I haven't found even one web-based system
that isn't substantially less convenient than email.

Full agreement.

The goal is smooth & efficient communication channels so we can put our
finite energy towards solving code problems not spend our time bogged
down working around infrastructure. I think we actually do pretty well
there.

But I accept the benefit of also having bugs in a tracker, some sort of
human-readable hybrid between a SCM and a freeform mailing list.
Especially if the ml is high traffic to begin with, stuff fades away into
yesterday's noise very quickly.

2c more,
Hamish

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6

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Hamish <hamish_b@yahoo.com> wrote:

(aside: I am very please with the new ML’s ability to only send me 1
email if it sees I am subscribed to the ML and am in the To or Cc field.
I think it is not possible, but it would be great if could do that too)

Not sure if this is what you mean:

http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/options/grass-dev/hamish_b–at–yahoo.com
->Avoid duplicate copies of messages?

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 5:20 AM, Hamish <hamish_b@yahoo.com> wrote:

I suppose it would be nice to recreate the functionality of the old RT
system, where a post from the ml server (From: grass-dev@, Subj: [Trac
#xyz], Originating IP: x.y.z.0 etc spam-proofing) would automatically end
up in the bug’s log. But as we all know spam-proofing that is a lot of
work and never 100% successful. But RT did it, and so maybe Trac can be
set up to do it too. If we want that, I think it is up to us to research
and present a solution, rather than expect someone else to do that for
us.
In concept I wouldn’t mind devoting some of our devel time to improving
trac if needed, to selfishly “give something back”.

In the old RT times, I had a “bogofilter” based spam filter running. This worked
really well. We could set up something like this easily, too (I would use “my” GDF
server for filtering to have control over it since I don’t have ssh access on lists.osgeo.org).

Only http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/EmailtoTracScript or likewise is needed on trac.osgeo.org.

Markus

PS: I also find it abuse to copy someone else’s emails to trac. At least please don’t
randomly post on trac or via email… I’ll stop to do the copy-paste job now for others.

7

Hamish:

> (aside: I am very please with the new ML's ability to only send me 1
> email if it sees I am subscribed to the ML and am in the To or Cc
> field. I think it is not possible, but it would be great if could do
> that too)

Not sure if this is what you mean:

http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/options/grass-dev/hamish_b--at--yahoo.com

->Avoid duplicate copies of messages?

Yes.

Hamish

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