[GRASS-dev] where to store GRASS settings: GISRC and wx settings

On Aug 30, 2011, at 7:48 AM, <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> <grass-dev-request@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:48:53 +0100
From: Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>
Subject: Re: [GRASS-dev] where to store GRASS settings: GISRC and wx
       settings
To: GRASS developers list <grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org>
Message-ID: <20060.2373.448470.56467@cerise.gclements.plus.com>
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Hamish wrote:

** PUT NEW DEVELOPMENT IN TRUNK AND LEAVE 6.x WELL ENOUGH ALONE

+1

Can we please make an effort to "finish" the 6.x branch. I'd really
like to see 7.0.0 released before the heat death of the universe.

--
Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

+1

We should release GRASS 6.4.2 and end the version 6 series. Then we can focus on what is needed to move to an RC for GRASS 7. I don't think that there is anything in GRASS 6.5 that is not either in GRASS 6.4 OR in GRASS 7, but it is a hybrid of the two versions and this is something we should avoid because of the increasing difficulty of keeping it in sync with either 6.4 or 7.

To release 6.4.2 this, we may need to roll back some in-development features like the graphical modeler and interactive cartography module that have crept into GRASS 6.4 from GRASS 7. These are really great new tools and I strongly support their addition to GRASS, but they are still in development and should not have been added to the 6.x line.

GRASS 7 is a really good piece of software. But if we do not finish 6, it will never see the light of day.

Michael

Hi,

2011/8/30 Michael Barton <michael.barton@asu.edu>:

To release 6.4.2 this, we may need to roll back some in-development features like the graphical modeler and interactive cartography module that have crept into GRASS 6.4 from GRASS 7. These are really great new tools and I strongly support their addition to GRASS, but they are still in development and should not have been added to the 6.x line.

I think it's not good idea. wxGUI Modeler and wxGUI ps.map are not
finished, but used by the user (I got several mails about the modeler)
and maintained. Compared to other wxGUI components there are not
significantly worse or non-functional (maybe better then others). We
can marked them as "experimental". We are close to 6.4.2, please don't
touch anything in wxGUI, only bug-fixes are allowed. To be honest, I
don't believe that 6.4.2 will the last version of 6.x.

Speaking about 7.0, it will take longer time to release, we would need
more active developers to cover at least basic features we would wish
for G7.

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://geo.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa

Martin Landa wrote:

Speaking about 7.0, it will take longer time to release, we would need
more active developers to cover at least basic features we would wish
for G7.

The easiest way to get more active developers for 7.0 is to cease
allowing new features to be added to 6.x.

Personally, I'd just kill the 6.5 branch. If something is too major to
go into 6.4.x, it should be reserved for 7.0.

FWIW, I don't think that fundamental changes to the raster library are
feasible for 7.0. They'll just push back the release date to "never".

--
Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

Hi,

2011/8/30 Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>:

Speaking about 7.0, it will take longer time to release, we would need
more active developers to cover at least basic features we would wish
for G7.

The easiest way to get more active developers for 7.0 is to cease
allowing new features to be added to 6.x.

Personally, I'd just kill the 6.5 branch. If something is too major to
go into 6.4.x, it should be reserved for 7.0.

I don't think so, just check which people are touching trunk and
devbr6 or relbr64. Closing development in 6.x will not bring anyone to
trunk. The real situation is that we have too few people actively
developing GRASS. That's real reason why we are so behind of basic
wishes we had for GRASS 7 - at least speaking about rasters, cleaning
up 3d raster lib, etc.

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://geo.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa

On Aug 30, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Martin Landa wrote:

Hi,

2011/8/30 Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>:

Speaking about 7.0, it will take longer time to release, we would need
more active developers to cover at least basic features we would wish
for G7.

The easiest way to get more active developers for 7.0 is to cease
allowing new features to be added to 6.x.

Personally, I'd just kill the 6.5 branch. If something is too major to
go into 6.4.x, it should be reserved for 7.0.

I don't think so, just check which people are touching trunk and
devbr6 or relbr64. Closing development in 6.x will not bring anyone to
trunk. The real situation is that we have too few people actively
developing GRASS. That's real reason why we are so behind of basic
wishes we had for GRASS 7 - at least speaking about rasters, cleaning
up 3d raster lib, etc.

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * Studijní program Geodézie a kartografie – GeoWikiCZ

Seems an even stronger reason to focus limited development efforts on a single branch.

____________________
C. Michael Barton
Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Arizona State University

voice: 480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-727-9746 (CSDC)
fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC), 480-727-0709 (CSDC)
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu

2011/8/30 Michael Barton <Michael.Barton@asu.edu>:

Seems an even stronger reason to focus limited development efforts on a single branch.

that's what we are more or less doing (see who commits to trunk).
Anyway there is still need of fixing bugs in GRASS 6.4, improving
winGRASS, preparing new release, etc. What I don't understand are
never-ending discussions about what we cannot do in GRASS 6.x branches
instead of discussing what should be done in GRASS 7 (including
someone who will implement ideas) and motivation people to maintain
GRASS 6.4 for next release (since GRASS 7 release is in the stars).

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://geo.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa

On Aug 30, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Martin Landa wrote:

2011/8/30 Michael Barton <Michael.Barton@asu.edu>:

Seems an even stronger reason to focus limited development efforts on a single branch.

that's what we are more or less doing (see who commits to trunk).
Anyway there is still need of fixing bugs in GRASS 6.4, improving
winGRASS, preparing new release, etc.

I'm completely in agreement. We should move ahead with a release cycle for 6.4.2 and get this done with.

What I don't understand are
never-ending discussions about what we cannot do in GRASS 6.x branches
instead of discussing what should be done in GRASS 7 (including
someone who will implement ideas) and motivation people to maintain
GRASS 6.4 for next release (since GRASS 7 release is in the stars).

I guess my suggestion would be to work on fixing bugs and finishing things in progress on GRASS 7 before adding anything else new. This is not recommending a feature freeze, but simply to get a better idea of where we are with GRASS 7. A clear roadmap would be helpful of course.

Michael

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * Studijní program Geodézie a kartografie – GeoWikiCZ

Glynn Clements wrote:

Personally, I'd just kill the 6.5 branch. If something is too major to
go into 6.4.x, it should be reserved for 7.0.

+1

Markus M

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Markus Metz
<markus.metz.giswork@googlemail.com> wrote:

Glynn Clements wrote:

Personally, I'd just kill the 6.5 branch. If something is too major to
go into 6.4.x, it should be reserved for 7.0.

+1

I am also not quite sure about the need of the 6.5 branch?
For me it is sufficient to have 6.4 as production system and 7 as
experimental system.

Honestly, who's *using* it as a user?
Because: yes, it can (could?) be branch to be used for testing but
I actually don't know anyone who really uses 6.5 for work.
Please tell us if you use 6.5 for work to understand if this branch is
really needed.

Markus

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Michael Barton <michael.barton@asu.edu> wrote:

On Aug 30, 2011, at 7:48 AM, Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

Can we please make an effort to "finish" the 6.x branch. I'd really
like to see 7.0.0 released before the heat death of the universe.

Kind of yes but bugfix maintenance should (and will) continue.

We should release GRASS 6.4.2 and end the version 6 series.

Ys, once the digitizer works. That's an essential tool, co-financed by the
municipality of Trento, and almost done.

...

GRASS 7 is a really good piece of software. But if we do not finish 6, it will never see the light of day.

I think that a release of GRASS 7.0.0 has been delayed to the kind of
idea/promise
to change the raster format. If we explicitely kick that idea for 7,
then a future release might
be way closer.

Markus

What's wrong with the digitizer? Is this a Windows issue?

There were some bugs in the Mac version of the digitizer but I think they are fixed now.

Michael
____________________
C. Michael Barton
Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Arizona State University

voice: 480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-727-9746 (CSDC)
fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC), 480-727-0709 (CSDC)
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu

On Aug 31, 2011, at 12:16 AM, Markus Neteler wrote:

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Michael Barton <michael.barton@asu.edu> wrote:

On Aug 30, 2011, at 7:48 AM, Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

Can we please make an effort to "finish" the 6.x branch. I'd really
like to see 7.0.0 released before the heat death of the universe.

Kind of yes but bugfix maintenance should (and will) continue.

We should release GRASS 6.4.2 and end the version 6 series.

Ys, once the digitizer works. That's an essential tool, co-financed by the
municipality of Trento, and almost done.

...

GRASS 7 is a really good piece of software. But if we do not finish 6, it will never see the light of day.

I think that a release of GRASS 7.0.0 has been delayed to the kind of
idea/promise
to change the raster format. If we explicitely kick that idea for 7,
then a future release might
be way closer.

Markus

Hi,

2011/8/31 Markus Metz <markus.metz.giswork@googlemail.com>:

Glynn Clements wrote:

Personally, I'd just kill the 6.5 branch. If something is too major to
go into 6.4.x, it should be reserved for 7.0.

+1

+1 for killing 6.5 after we release 6.4.2. I think that 6.5 branch
made sense in the past. Now we are little bit closer to 7.0, any
development in 6.x branches should be really avoided. I used 6.5
successfully as test-bed for wxGUI in the last months. Bearing in mind
that 6.4.2 is going to be last or next-to-last release of GRASS 6
wxGUI doesn't need devbr6 for it's development.

Martin

--
Martin Landa <landa.martin gmail.com> * http://geo.fsv.cvut.cz/~landa

I am using 6.5 for some work, but I can easily move to 6.4 or 7 , depending on the project.

Doug

Doug Newcomb
USFWS
Raleigh, NC
919-856-4520 ext. 14 doug_newcomb@fws.gov

The opinions I express are my own and are not representative of the official policy of the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service or Dept. of the Interior. Life is too short for undocumented, proprietary data formats.

Markus Neteler <neteler@osgeo.org>
Sent by: grass-dev-bounces@lists.osgeo.org

08/31/2011 03:13 AM

To

Markus Metz <markus.metz.giswork@googlemail.com>

cc

GRASS developers list <grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org>

Subject

Re: [GRASS-dev] where to store GRASS settings: GISRC and wx settings

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Markus Metz
<markus.metz.giswork@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Glynn Clements wrote:
>>
>> Personally, I'd just kill the 6.5 branch. If something is too major to
>> go into 6.4.x, it should be reserved for 7.0.
>>
> +1

I am also not quite sure about the need of the 6.5 branch?
For me it is sufficient to have 6.4 as production system and 7 as
experimental system.

Honestly, who's *using* it as a user?
Because: yes, it can (could?) be branch to be used for testing but
I actually don't know anyone who really uses 6.5 for work.
Please tell us if you use 6.5 for work to understand if this branch is
really needed.

Markus
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Markus Neteler wrote:

I am also not quite sure about the need of the 6.5 branch?

I think it is better to think of it by its name, develbranch_6,
than as the 6.5 branch. Then much the same as releasebranch_5_5
we should just leave it in peace to grow old and collect dust.
Calling it 6.5 implies a future 6.5.0 release of development
work, like we did for 6.3.0, but there are no plans for that.

For me it is sufficient to have 6.4 as production system
and 7 as experimental system.

Honestly, who's *using* it as a user?

I use it.. my normal workflow is to use it as my everyday scratch
pad and for experimentation, then switch to 6.4 when I need to
generate real numbers I will put in a report. (which also
encourages me to properly test and backport changes in the
weeks following development :slight_smile:

I'm not comfortable using trunk for my job-work, and I'm not
comfortable developing directly in 6.4. As most of my current
contributions stem from fixing bugs/overcoming problems+needs
I encounter as I do my day job, I typically end up in the middle
of the two: 6.5. I'm probably not a standard user, but perhaps
not too far from how a power-user might operate.

Because: yes, it can (could?) be branch to be used for
testing but I actually don't know anyone who really uses
6.5 for work.

fwiw my usual dev mode has to put any potentially dangerous
6.x specific change in 6.5 first for two weeks, then try not
to forget to back port it to 6.4 once it has been well tested.
(And as a rule only commit things to 6.4 that I am quite sure of)

Please tell us if you use 6.5 for work to understand if
this branch is really needed.

in its function as develbranch_6, and to preserve its svn
history, I would certainly argue strongly not to simply delete
it. but I'd be very happy to declare all 6.x to be in bug-fix-
only mode (except perhaps for already begun wxGUI projects)
and let it sit there idle.

aka it would seem to me like defeat to remove choice from users
because us developers couldn't muster discipline, and so needed
to implement technological fixes to what are essentially social
problems. (maintaining focus)

Glynn:

We should release GRASS 6.4.2 and end the version 6 series.

I am not against a 6.4.3 release which just fixed some bugs
people found. Similarly I am not against a 5.4.2 release if there
is some terrible bug (ie data corruption or copyright issue)
found which goes back there. That doesn't mean it has to be
anything like the place of development it has been up 'til now
though.

Madi wrote (& Massimo echoed):

As a user, I can say that it is actually the most usable
IMHO, G7 is not stable enough and the 6.4 is not so up-to-date.

since 6.4.1 was released a flood of backports have happened and
now AFAIK 6.4 and 6.5 are not anything like as out of sync as
they used to be. I wonder if I should set up a cron job on the
adhoc server to generate a weekly diff. I don't think that
everything currently in devbr6 must be backported to relbr64, but
we should be aware if we've meant to backport something but
forgotten to do it.

Any reason to wait any longer for 6.4.2rc1?

letting go is hard to do,
Hamish

Hamish wrote:

Glynn:
>> We should release GRASS 6.4.2 and end the version 6 series.

I am not against a 6.4.3 release which just fixed some bugs
people found.

Sure. I don't have a problem with fixing bugs in 6.4.x until 7.0 gets
to the point where everyone should be using it.

Similarly I am not against a 5.4.2 release if there
is some terrible bug (ie data corruption or copyright issue)
found which goes back there.

5.x is too old to be worth the trouble. I'm not sure that anyone would
still remember how to build, fix and package it. (e.g. the old gmake5
build system).

--
Glynn Clements <glynn@gclements.plus.com>

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Glynn Clements
<glynn@gclements.plus.com> wrote:

Hamish wrote:

...

Similarly I am not against a 5.4.2 release if there
is some terrible bug (ie data corruption or copyright issue)
found which goes back there.

5.x is too old to be worth the trouble. I'm not sure that anyone would
still remember how to build, fix and package it. (e.g. the old gmake5
build system).

I agree. Rarely, I backport very important stuff to 5 (1-2 a year)
but I won't dive into the adventure to mess around with
the Gmakefile system. Distros still delivering only GRASS 5
are just outdated.

Markus