[GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability

Hello

Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc students,
from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the students had had no prior exposure
to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through their
work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.

However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised the
change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known outside Newcastle" and that
it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation. The
examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like ArcGIS or
MapInfo in the GIS module.

It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures on
the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large commercial
companies etc.

Many thanks
Roy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Roy Sanderson
Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
Devonshire Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU
United Kingdom

Tel: +44 191 246 4835
Fax: +44 191 246 4999

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roy,

You'll probably get a lot of response on this, but I'll add a bit here. In
terms of not being known outside Newcastle, take a look at the
user/developer map on the GRASS web site. I'm in Arizona, USA--quite a ways
from Newcastle--and we are using GRASS in research projects and teaching it
to students here.

Because many companies use ESRI products, it will be useful for students
seeking employment in those companies to have some familiarity with ESRI
software. However, they will go farther if they have a good understanding of
GIS concepts, and especially how to use GIS to solve problems, than simply
the techniques of how to push which buttons. People who actually know what
to use GIS for, can get up to speed in different systems pretty fast. So an
overview of different software, including ESRI, might be a good addition to
a course that uses GRASS to more effectively teach how to use GIS.

Also, those who are employed in places where the results are more important
than the software used might do better with GRASS--e.g. those focusing on
research or in consulting.

Michael

__________________________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

phone: 480-965-6213
fax: 480-965-7671
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton

From: Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
To: <grassuser@grass.itc.it>
Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability

Hello

Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc students,
from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the students had had no prior exposure
to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through their
work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.

However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised the
change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known outside Newcastle" and that
it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation. The
examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like ArcGIS or
MapInfo in the GIS module.

It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures on
the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large commercial
companies etc.

Many thanks
Roy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Roy Sanderson
Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
Devonshire Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU
United Kingdom

Tel: +44 191 246 4835
Fax: +44 191 246 4999

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roy,

Here in the Institute of Archaeology, UCL, we run an MSc in "GIS and Spatial Analysis in Archaeology". Approximately 30%--40% of our teaching uses GRASS, for various reasons including (in no particular order): stable handling of large datasets; particular suitability for certain archaeological applications such as cumulative viewshed analysis; ensuring that students learn principles of GIS rather than how to push ESRI's buttons; ability of students to use software off-campus, either by remote login or by installation at no cost on their own machines. It is interesting that many students choose to use GRASS for their dissertation research.

Although GRASS is relatively little-used by commercial archaeological organisations (that may slowly be changing) our external examiners have always been supportive. Of course, the key difference between our situation and yours is that we do also teach ArcGIS, to a considerable extent because students expect it.

I don't have 'facts and figures' that would be useful to you, but one thing you might like to consider is how far the commercial companies in your subject area actually use ArcGIS or Mapinfo with the out-of-the-box interfaces? The larger archaeological organisations tend to have bespoke interfaces, which means that the advantage of teaching using those packages is not actually as great as your (rather ignorant) external seems to think.

Mark

--
Dr Mark Lake

Institute of Archaeology
University College London
31-34 Gordon Square
London. WC1H 0PY

Tel: +44 (0)207 679 7495
Fax: +44 (0)207 383 2572

Michael,

Completely agree. One might also go to http://grass.itc.it/community/index.php to see the international use of GRASS GIS and to http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ for the use of GMT, which many GRASS GIS users also use extensively. The assertion that GRASS is not used outside of Newcastle is an openly inflammatory and contentious remark and clearly not grounded in fact.

So, one would also presume that UNIX, Linux, and MacOS X should not be used in an academic setting for the same reason, that is, that MS-Windows dominates, so…?

Tom

Michael Barton wrote:

Roy,

You'll probably get a lot of response on this, but I'll add a bit here. In
terms of not being known outside Newcastle, take a look at the
user/developer map on the GRASS web site. I'm in Arizona, USA--quite a ways
from Newcastle--and we are using GRASS in research projects and teaching it
to students here.

Because many companies use ESRI products, it will be useful for students
seeking employment in those companies to have some familiarity with ESRI
software. However, they will go farther if they have a good understanding of
GIS concepts, and especially how to use GIS to solve problems, than simply
the techniques of how to push which buttons. People who actually know what
to use GIS for, can get up to speed in different systems pretty fast. So an
overview of different software, including ESRI, might be a good addition to
a course that uses GRASS to more effectively teach how to use GIS.

Also, those who are employed in places where the results are more important
than the software used might do better with GRASS--e.g. those focusing on
research or in consulting.

Michael

__________________________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

phone: 480-965-6213
fax: 480-965-7671
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton

From: Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
To: <grassuser@grass.itc.it>
Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability

Hello

Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc students,
from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the students had had no prior exposure
to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through their
work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.

However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised the
change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known outside Newcastle" and that
it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation. The
examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like ArcGIS or
MapInfo in the GIS module.

It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures on
the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large commercial
companies etc.

Many thanks
Roy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Roy Sanderson
Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
Devonshire Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU
United Kingdom

Tel: +44 191 246 4835
Fax: +44 191 246 4999

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
grassuser mailing list
grassuser@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser
  
--
Thomas E Adams
National Weather Service
Ohio River Forecast Center
1901 South State Route 134
Wilmington, OH 45177

EMAIL: thomas.adams@noaa.gov

VOICE: 937-383-0528
FAX: 937-383-0033

Hello Tom, Michael and others

Thanks for your comments on this. I was somewhat baffled by the external
examiner's report, as student feedback had been very positive on the
course. Perhaps he thought GRASS was only used in education? I did
demonstrate a few ArGIS features to the students at the end of the course,
but it was noticable that only one of them wanted to use it when it came to
their projects, and the rest stuck to GRASS.

Best wishes
Roy

At 10:43 18/09/06 -0400, Thomas Adams wrote:

Michael,

Completely agree. One might also go to
http://grass.itc.it/community/index.php to see the international use of
GRASS GIS and to http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ for the use of GMT, which
many GRASS GIS users also use extensively. The assertion that GRASS is
not used outside of Newcastle is an openly inflammatory and contentious
remark and clearly not grounded in fact.

So, one would also presume that UNIX, Linux, and MacOS X should not be
used in an academic setting for the same reason, that is, that
MS-Windows dominates, so…?

Tom

Michael Barton wrote:

Roy,

You'll probably get a lot of response on this, but I'll add a bit here. In
terms of not being known outside Newcastle, take a look at the
user/developer map on the GRASS web site. I'm in Arizona, USA--quite a ways
from Newcastle--and we are using GRASS in research projects and teaching it
to students here.

Because many companies use ESRI products, it will be useful for students
seeking employment in those companies to have some familiarity with ESRI
software. However, they will go farther if they have a good

understanding of

GIS concepts, and especially how to use GIS to solve problems, than simply
the techniques of how to push which buttons. People who actually know what
to use GIS for, can get up to speed in different systems pretty fast. So an
overview of different software, including ESRI, might be a good addition to
a course that uses GRASS to more effectively teach how to use GIS.

Also, those who are employed in places where the results are more important
than the software used might do better with GRASS--e.g. those focusing on
research or in consulting.

Michael

__________________________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

phone: 480-965-6213
fax: 480-965-7671
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton

From: Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
To: <grassuser@grass.itc.it>
Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability

Hello

Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc students,
from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the students had had no prior exposure
to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through

their

work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.

However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised the
change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known outside Newcastle" and that
it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation. The
examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like

ArcGIS or

MapInfo in the GIS module.

It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures on
the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large commercial
companies etc.

Many thanks
Roy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------
Roy Sanderson
Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
Devonshire Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU
United Kingdom

Tel: +44 191 246 4835
Fax: +44 191 246 4999

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
grassuser mailing list
grassuser@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser
  
--
Thomas E Adams
National Weather Service
Ohio River Forecast Center
1901 South State Route 134
Wilmington, OH 45177

EMAIL: thomas.adams@noaa.gov

VOICE: 937-383-0528
FAX: 937-383-0033

Hallo,

imho university should be here in general to teach principals. Not to
prepare the students for the praxis.

GRASS is perfect didactical tool, it makes you understand, how it works
and what steps must be done befor you get your result.

GRASS has also that advantage, that it can be used be the students on
their computers (pc/mac), so they can work at home.

Just my two cents

Jachym

On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 04:58:49PM +0000, Roy Sanderson wrote:

Hello Tom, Michael and others

Thanks for your comments on this. I was somewhat baffled by the external
examiner's report, as student feedback had been very positive on the
course. Perhaps he thought GRASS was only used in education? I did
demonstrate a few ArGIS features to the students at the end of the course,
but it was noticable that only one of them wanted to use it when it came to
their projects, and the rest stuck to GRASS.

Best wishes
Roy

At 10:43 18/09/06 -0400, Thomas Adams wrote:
>Michael,
>
>Completely agree. One might also go to
>http://grass.itc.it/community/index.php to see the international use of
>GRASS GIS and to http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ for the use of GMT, which
>many GRASS GIS users also use extensively. The assertion that GRASS is
>not used outside of Newcastle is an openly inflammatory and contentious
>remark and clearly not grounded in fact.
>
>So, one would also presume that UNIX, Linux, and MacOS X should not be
>used in an academic setting for the same reason, that is, that
>MS-Windows dominates, so…?
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>Michael Barton wrote:
>> Roy,
>>
>> You'll probably get a lot of response on this, but I'll add a bit here. In
>> terms of not being known outside Newcastle, take a look at the
>> user/developer map on the GRASS web site. I'm in Arizona, USA--quite a ways
>> from Newcastle--and we are using GRASS in research projects and teaching it
>> to students here.
>>
>> Because many companies use ESRI products, it will be useful for students
>> seeking employment in those companies to have some familiarity with ESRI
>> software. However, they will go farther if they have a good
understanding of
>> GIS concepts, and especially how to use GIS to solve problems, than simply
>> the techniques of how to push which buttons. People who actually know what
>> to use GIS for, can get up to speed in different systems pretty fast. So an
>> overview of different software, including ESRI, might be a good addition to
>> a course that uses GRASS to more effectively teach how to use GIS.
>>
>> Also, those who are employed in places where the results are more important
>> than the software used might do better with GRASS--e.g. those focusing on
>> research or in consulting.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
>> School of Human Evolution & Social Change
>> Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
>> Arizona State University
>>
>> phone: 480-965-6213
>> fax: 480-965-7671
>> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
>>> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
>>> To: <grassuser@grass.itc.it>
>>> Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability
>>>
>>> Hello
>>>
>>> Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc students,
>>> from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the students had had no prior exposure
>>> to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through
their
>>> work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
>>> concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.
>>>
>>> However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised the
>>> change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known outside Newcastle" and that
>>> it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation. The
>>> examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like
ArcGIS or
>>> MapInfo in the GIS module.
>>>
>>> It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures on
>>> the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large commercial
>>> companies etc.
>>>
>>> Many thanks
>>> Roy
>>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------
>>> Roy Sanderson
>>> Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
>>> Devonshire Building
>>> University of Newcastle
>>> Newcastle upon Tyne
>>> NE1 7RU
>>> United Kingdom
>>>
>>> Tel: +44 191 246 4835
>>> Fax: +44 191 246 4999
>>>
>>> http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
>>> r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk
>>>
>>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> grassuser mailing list
>> grassuser@grass.itc.it
>> http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser
>>
>
>
>--
>Thomas E Adams
>National Weather Service
>Ohio River Forecast Center
>1901 South State Route 134
>Wilmington, OH 45177
>
>EMAIL: thomas.adams@noaa.gov
>
>VOICE: 937-383-0528
>FAX: 937-383-0033
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
grassuser mailing list
grassuser@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser

--
Jachym Cepicky
e-mail: jachym.cepicky@centrum.cz
URL: http://les-ejk.cz
GPG: http://les-ejk.cz/gnupg_public_key/jachym_cepicky-gpg_public_key.asc
-----------------------------------------
OFFICE:
GDF-Hannover
Mengendamm 16d
30177 Hannover
Germany
e-mail: cepicky@gdf-hannover.de
URL: http://gdf-hannover.de
Tel.: +49 511-39088507

Hi,
'Grass GIS is not known outside Newcastle.. External
examiner'.
This is a typical approach from those who belong or
support business empires, of commercial GIS.
Go through the wonderful amount of presentations on
FOSS GIS including GRASS from the latest FOSS4G
workshop website.
http://www.foss4g2006.org/

In UK one of the very prominent users and code
developers of GRASS GIS, is
Dr Mark Lake
Institute of Archaeology
University College London
U are not alone in UK.
So, Dr Saderson, do keep up the good work.
Ravi
--- Jachym Cepicky <jachym.cepicky@centrum.cz> wrote:

Hallo,

imho university should be here in general to teach
principals. Not to
prepare the students for the praxis.

GRASS is perfect didactical tool, it makes you
understand, how it works
and what steps must be done befor you get your
result.

GRASS has also that advantage, that it can be used
be the students on
their computers (pc/mac), so they can work at home.

Just my two cents

Jachym

On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 04:58:49PM +0000, Roy
Sanderson wrote:
> Hello Tom, Michael and others
>
> Thanks for your comments on this. I was somewhat
baffled by the external
> examiner's report, as student feedback had been
very positive on the
> course. Perhaps he thought GRASS was only used in
education? I did
> demonstrate a few ArGIS features to the students
at the end of the course,
> but it was noticable that only one of them wanted
to use it when it came to
> their projects, and the rest stuck to GRASS.
>
> Best wishes
> Roy
>
> At 10:43 18/09/06 -0400, Thomas Adams wrote:
> >Michael,
> >
> >Completely agree. One might also go to
> >http://grass.itc.it/community/index.php to see
the international use of
> >GRASS GIS and to http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ for
the use of GMT, which
> >many GRASS GIS users also use extensively. The
assertion that GRASS is
> >not used outside of Newcastle is an openly
inflammatory and contentious
> >remark and clearly not grounded in fact.
> >
> >So, one would also presume that UNIX, Linux, and
MacOS X should not be
> >used in an academic setting for the same reason,
that is, that
> >MS-Windows dominates, so…?
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >Michael Barton wrote:
> >> Roy,
> >>
> >> You'll probably get a lot of response on this,
but I'll add a bit here. In
> >> terms of not being known outside Newcastle,
take a look at the
> >> user/developer map on the GRASS web site. I'm
in Arizona, USA--quite a ways
> >> from Newcastle--and we are using GRASS in
research projects and teaching it
> >> to students here.
> >>
> >> Because many companies use ESRI products, it
will be useful for students
> >> seeking employment in those companies to have
some familiarity with ESRI
> >> software. However, they will go farther if they
have a good
> understanding of
> >> GIS concepts, and especially how to use GIS to
solve problems, than simply
> >> the techniques of how to push which buttons.
People who actually know what
> >> to use GIS for, can get up to speed in
different systems pretty fast. So an
> >> overview of different software, including ESRI,
might be a good addition to
> >> a course that uses GRASS to more effectively
teach how to use GIS.
> >>
> >> Also, those who are employed in places where
the results are more important
> >> than the software used might do better with
GRASS--e.g. those focusing on
> >> research or in consulting.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
> >> School of Human Evolution & Social Change
> >> Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
> >> Arizona State University
> >>
> >> phone: 480-965-6213
> >> fax: 480-965-7671
> >> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: Roy Sanderson
<R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
> >>> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
> >>> To: <grassuser@grass.itc.it>
> >>> Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and
employability
> >>>
> >>> Hello
> >>>
> >>> Last spring I converted a short course I give
to some of our MSc students,
> >>> from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the
students had had no prior exposure
> >>> to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that
they progressed through
> their
> >>> work much more rapidly and learnt more in
terms of the fundamental
> >>> concepts, and I was pleased with the overall
results.
> >>>
> >>> However, the External Examiner's report for
the MSc has criticised the
> >>> change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known
outside Newcastle" and that
> >>> it is harming the students' employment
prospects on graduation. The
> >>> examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to
using something like
> ArcGIS or
> >>> MapInfo in the GIS module.
> >>>
> >>> It would be useful if anyone could provide me
with a few facts/figures on
> >>> the use of GRASS outside of academia,
especially in any large commercial
> >>> companies etc.
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks
> >>> Roy
> >>>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>> -------
> >>> Roy Sanderson
> >>> Institute for Research on Environment and
Sustainability
> >>> Devonshire Building
> >>> University of Newcastle
> >>> Newcastle upon Tyne
> >>> NE1 7RU
> >>> United Kingdom
> >>>
> >>> Tel: +44 191 246 4835
> >>> Fax: +44 191 246 4999
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
> >>> r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk
> >>>
> >>>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> grassuser mailing list
> >> grassuser@grass.itc.it
> >> http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >Thomas E Adams
> >National Weather Service
> >Ohio River Forecast Center
> >1901 South State Route 134
> >Wilmington, OH 45177
> >
> >EMAIL: thomas.adams@noaa.gov
> >
> >VOICE: 937-383-0528
> >FAX: 937-383-0033
> >
> >
> >

=== message truncated ===>
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I couldnt agree more with the previous postings. GIS is about concepts, not about learning which buttons get you to an end result. Given infinity, a monkey could write a work of Shakespeare. Given even less time, a monkey could press enough buttons to perform “GIS Analysis” using the ESRI suite.

On a previous post someone replied with something that has really stuck with me. It may have been Dylan. (quote not verbatim) “Using a computer graphics package does not make one an artist. Using a word processor does not make one a writer. Using GIS software does not make one a GIS Professional”. The key here is that GIS is about the concepts and analytical capabilities, the chosen software is just the tool to do it. GRASS is an excellent tool for many reasons.

Now for the bad news: Living in the US where ESRI is dominant (easily seen on job postings), I would have to unfortunately admit that it is important to at a minimum be able to say you have used ESRI ArcMap when job hunting. Unfortunately (from a US perspective), much like “computers” are synonymous with Windows, GIS is synonymous with ESRI.

Now for the big “However…”. For companies/agencies looking to start up GIS or take it to the next level besides simple editing and map printing, or even migrate away from an ESRI suite due to the enormous yearly “maintenance fees” & bugs, GRASS and other open source GIS and databases have huge advantages. From experience I can say that since ESRI re-wrote their GIS in 2000 to “ArcMap”, the quality of the software has tanked. In retrospect I am thankful, because it is what drove me to open source GIS like GRASS. One obvious drawback to ArcMap is the massive costs. Take the startup costs alone (these are from memory and may be dated they are not exact quotes): ArcMap Arc/Info = $14,000USD. Raster analysis extension = $2,500USD. 2.5 (3d) analysis extension = $2,500USD. (those extensions may be $5,000)

Looking at it from a student’s perspective, think of how much power is given to the student to be able to go to an agency or company and say “ArcMap… yeah I can use that software. But if you really want cost savings and a robust, scalable GIS, you might want to consider GRASS GIS on Linux or Mac. The initial cost savings are in the tens of thousands of dollars, the quality of software is far superior, and there are no yearly maintenance fees.” That is empowering and enriching students rather than robbing them.

So, the answer has two “yes’s”. Yes, due to market saturation (in the US), students should be equipped with the knowledge to push ESRI buttons. And yes, learning GIS concepts and applications for real world applications should be done with open source software GIS such as GRASS as it causes the student to come away with a solid understanding of what GIS is and how it works. Also given the fact that GRASS is part of many open source GIS solutions, students can then explore other open source GIS software like GDAL/OGR, Quantum GIS, Mapserver, and PostGIS/PostgreSQL.

Take the semester to teach GIS concepts with GRASS GIS on Mac/Linux. Then take a day to show how to push buttons on Windows/ArcMap. Be sure to explain open source advantages and how to join the revolution. Then let the students make the decision. It will be an easy one.

Mark

On 9/18/06, Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk > wrote:

Hello Tom, Michael and others

Thanks for your comments on this. I was somewhat baffled by the external
examiner’s report, as student feedback had been very positive on the
course. Perhaps he thought GRASS was only used in education? I did
demonstrate a few ArGIS features to the students at the end of the course,
but it was noticable that only one of them wanted to use it when it came to
their projects, and the rest stuck to GRASS.

Best wishes
Roy

At 10:43 18/09/06 -0400, Thomas Adams wrote:

Michael,

Completely agree. One might also go to
http://grass.itc.it/community/index.php to see the international use of
GRASS GIS and to http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ for the use of GMT, which
many GRASS GIS users also use extensively. The assertion that GRASS is
not used outside of Newcastle is an openly inflammatory and contentious
remark and clearly not grounded in fact.

So, one would also presume that UNIX, Linux, and MacOS X should not be
used in an academic setting for the same reason, that is, that
MS-Windows dominates, so…?

Tom

Michael Barton wrote:

Roy,

You’ll probably get a lot of response on this, but I’ll add a bit here. In
terms of not being known outside Newcastle, take a look at the
user/developer map on the GRASS web site. I’m in Arizona, USA–quite a ways
from Newcastle–and we are using GRASS in research projects and teaching it
to students here.

Because many companies use ESRI products, it will be useful for students
seeking employment in those companies to have some familiarity with ESRI
software. However, they will go farther if they have a good
understanding of
GIS concepts, and especially how to use GIS to solve problems, than simply
the techniques of how to push which buttons. People who actually know what
to use GIS for, can get up to speed in different systems pretty fast. So an
overview of different software, including ESRI, might be a good addition to
a course that uses GRASS to more effectively teach how to use GIS.

Also, those who are employed in places where the results are more important
than the software used might do better with GRASS–e.g. those focusing on
research or in consulting.

Michael


Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

phone: 480-965-6213
fax: 480-965-7671
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton

From: Roy Sanderson < R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
To: < grassuser@grass.itc.it >
Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability

Hello

Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc students,
from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the students had had no prior exposure
to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through
their
work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.

However, the External Examiner’s report for the MSc has criticised the
change to GRASS, stating that “it isn’t known outside Newcastle” and that
it is harming the students’ employment prospects on graduation. The
examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like
ArcGIS or
MapInfo in the GIS module.

It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures on
the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large commercial
companies etc.

Many thanks
Roy



Roy Sanderson
Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
Devonshire Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU
United Kingdom

Tel: +44 191 246 4835
Fax: +44 191 246 4999

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk



grassuser mailing list
grassuser@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser


Thomas E Adams
National Weather Service
Ohio River Forecast Center
1901 South State Route 134
Wilmington, OH 45177

EMAIL: thomas.adams@noaa.gov

VOICE: 937-383-0528
FAX: 937-383-0033


grassuser mailing list
grassuser@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser

Hey,

Being a complete novice in GIS, and having only used ESRI products a handful of times, How does ArcGIS/ESRI hinder student understanding? Isn't it the responsibility of the student/instructor to look inside the black-box? Maybe GRASS "forces" one to look inside, but I'm sure there have been times when I have cut and paste a GRASS command without fully understanding what's going on behind the scenes (did I mention I am a novice).

Just wondering.

M

At 01:14 AM 9/19/2006, you wrote:

Hallo,

imho university should be here in general to teach principals. Not to
prepare the students for the praxis.

GRASS is perfect didactical tool, it makes you understand, how it works
and what steps must be done befor you get your result.

GRASS has also that advantage, that it can be used be the students on
their computers (pc/mac), so they can work at home.

Just my two cents

Jachym

On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 04:58:49PM +0000, Roy Sanderson wrote:
> Hello Tom, Michael and others
>
> Thanks for your comments on this. I was somewhat baffled by the external
> examiner's report, as student feedback had been very positive on the
> course. Perhaps he thought GRASS was only used in education? I did
> demonstrate a few ArGIS features to the students at the end of the course,
> but it was noticable that only one of them wanted to use it when it came to
> their projects, and the rest stuck to GRASS.
>
> Best wishes
> Roy
>
> At 10:43 18/09/06 -0400, Thomas Adams wrote:
> >Michael,
> >
> >Completely agree. One might also go to
> >http://grass.itc.it/community/index.php to see the international use of
> >GRASS GIS and to http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ for the use of GMT, which
> >many GRASS GIS users also use extensively. The assertion that GRASS is
> >not used outside of Newcastle is an openly inflammatory and contentious
> >remark and clearly not grounded in fact.
> >
> >So, one would also presume that UNIX, Linux, and MacOS X should not be
> >used in an academic setting for the same reason, that is, that
> >MS-Windows dominates, so…?
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >Michael Barton wrote:
> >> Roy,
> >>
> >> You'll probably get a lot of response on this, but I'll add a bit here. In
> >> terms of not being known outside Newcastle, take a look at the
> >> user/developer map on the GRASS web site. I'm in Arizona, USA--quite a ways
> >> from Newcastle--and we are using GRASS in research projects and teaching it
> >> to students here.
> >>
> >> Because many companies use ESRI products, it will be useful for students
> >> seeking employment in those companies to have some familiarity with ESRI
> >> software. However, they will go farther if they have a good
> understanding of
> >> GIS concepts, and especially how to use GIS to solve problems, than simply
> >> the techniques of how to push which buttons. People who actually know what
> >> to use GIS for, can get up to speed in different systems pretty fast. So an
> >> overview of different software, including ESRI, might be a good addition to
> >> a course that uses GRASS to more effectively teach how to use GIS.
> >>
> >> Also, those who are employed in places where the results are more important
> >> than the software used might do better with GRASS--e.g. those focusing on
> >> research or in consulting.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
> >> School of Human Evolution & Social Change
> >> Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
> >> Arizona State University
> >>
> >> phone: 480-965-6213
> >> fax: 480-965-7671
> >> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
> >>
> >>> From: Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
> >>> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
> >>> To: <grassuser@grass.itc.it>
> >>> Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability
> >>>
> >>> Hello
> >>>
> >>> Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc students,
> >>> from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the students had had no prior exposure
> >>> to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through
> their
> >>> work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
> >>> concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.
> >>>
> >>> However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised the
> >>> change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known outside Newcastle" and that
> >>> it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation. The
> >>> examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like
> ArcGIS or
> >>> MapInfo in the GIS module.
> >>>
> >>> It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures on
> >>> the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large commercial
> >>> companies etc.
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks
> >>> Roy
> >>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -------
> >>> Roy Sanderson
> >>> Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
> >>> Devonshire Building
> >>> University of Newcastle
> >>> Newcastle upon Tyne
> >>> NE1 7RU
> >>> United Kingdom
> >>>
> >>> Tel: +44 191 246 4835
> >>> Fax: +44 191 246 4999
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
> >>> r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk
> >>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> grassuser mailing list
> >> grassuser@grass.itc.it
> >> http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser
> >>
> >
> >--
> >Thomas E Adams
> >National Weather Service
> >Ohio River Forecast Center
> >1901 South State Route 134
> >Wilmington, OH 45177
> >
> >EMAIL: thomas.adams@noaa.gov
> >
> >VOICE: 937-383-0528
> >FAX: 937-383-0033
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> grassuser mailing list
> grassuser@grass.itc.it
> http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser

--
Jachym Cepicky
e-mail: jachym.cepicky@centrum.cz
URL: http://les-ejk.cz
GPG: http://les-ejk.cz/gnupg_public_key/jachym_cepicky-gpg_public_key.asc
-----------------------------------------
OFFICE:
GDF-Hannover
Mengendamm 16d
30177 Hannover
Germany
e-mail: cepicky@gdf-hannover.de
URL: http://gdf-hannover.de
Tel.: +49 511-39088507

_______________________________________________
grassuser mailing list
grassuser@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser

as you said, grass "foreces" more than other programs, to see how does
it work inside. when I started, I had just one semester experience with
arc view 4. I completly learnt "how to gis" with grass. later on, I was
able to work with idrisi or arc gis without need of much time to learn
them.

for more "advanced" users and programers, in grass you can learn, how the
geospatial operations can be done - it is open source.

jachym

On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 12:20:05PM -0500, Martin du Saire wrote:

Hey,

Being a complete novice in GIS, and having only
used ESRI products a handful of times, How does
ArcGIS/ESRI hinder student understanding? Isn't
it the responsibility of the student/instructor
to look inside the black-box? Maybe GRASS
"forces" one to look inside, but I'm sure there
have been times when I have cut and paste a GRASS
command without fully understanding what's going
on behind the scenes (did I mention I am a novice).

Just wondering.

M

At 01:14 AM 9/19/2006, you wrote:
>Hallo,
>
>imho university should be here in general to teach principals. Not to
>prepare the students for the praxis.
>
>GRASS is perfect didactical tool, it makes you understand, how it works
>and what steps must be done befor you get your result.
>
>GRASS has also that advantage, that it can be used be the students on
>their computers (pc/mac), so they can work at home.
>
>Just my two cents
>
>Jachym
>
>On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 04:58:49PM +0000, Roy Sanderson wrote:
>> Hello Tom, Michael and others
>>
>> Thanks for your comments on this. I was somewhat baffled by the external
>> examiner's report, as student feedback had been very positive on the
>> course. Perhaps he thought GRASS was only used in education? I did
>> demonstrate a few ArGIS features to the students at the end of the
>course,
>> but it was noticable that only one of them wanted to use it when it came
>to
>> their projects, and the rest stuck to GRASS.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Roy
>>
>> At 10:43 18/09/06 -0400, Thomas Adams wrote:
>> >Michael,
>> >
>> >Completely agree. One might also go to
>> >http://grass.itc.it/community/index.php to see the international use of
>> >GRASS GIS and to http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ for the use of GMT, which
>> >many GRASS GIS users also use extensively. The assertion that GRASS is
>> >not used outside of Newcastle is an openly inflammatory and contentious
>> >remark and clearly not grounded in fact.
>> >
>> >So, one would also presume that UNIX, Linux, and MacOS X should not be
>> >used in an academic setting for the same reason, that is, that
>> >MS-Windows dominates, so…?
>> >
>> >Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Michael Barton wrote:
>> >> Roy,
>> >>
>> >> You'll probably get a lot of response on
>this, but I'll add a bit here. In
>> >> terms of not being known outside Newcastle, take a look at the
>> >> user/developer map on the GRASS web site.
>I'm in Arizona, USA--quite a ways
>> >> from Newcastle--and we are using GRASS in
>research projects and teaching it
>> >> to students here.
>> >>
>> >> Because many companies use ESRI products, it will be useful for
>students
>> >> seeking employment in those companies to have some familiarity with
>ESRI
>> >> software. However, they will go farther if they have a good
>> understanding of
>> >> GIS concepts, and especially how to use
>GIS to solve problems, than simply
>> >> the techniques of how to push which
>buttons. People who actually know what
>> >> to use GIS for, can get up to speed in
>different systems pretty fast. So an
>> >> overview of different software, including
>ESRI, might be a good addition to
>> >> a course that uses GRASS to more effectively teach how to use GIS.
>> >>
>> >> Also, those who are employed in places
>where the results are more important
>> >> than the software used might do better
>with GRASS--e.g. those focusing on
>> >> research or in consulting.
>> >>
>> >> Michael
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________
>> >> Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
>> >> School of Human Evolution & Social Change
>> >> Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
>> >> Arizona State University
>> >>
>> >> phone: 480-965-6213
>> >> fax: 480-965-7671
>> >> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> From: Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
>> >>> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
>> >>> To: <grassuser@grass.itc.it>
>> >>> Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability
>> >>>
>> >>> Hello
>> >>>
>> >>> Last spring I converted a short course I
>give to some of our MSc students,
>> >>> from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the
>students had had no prior exposure
>> >>> to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through
>> their
>> >>> work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
>> >>> concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.
>> >>>
>> >>> However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised
>the
>> >>> change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't
>known outside Newcastle" and that
>> >>> it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation. The
>> >>> examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like
>> ArcGIS or
>> >>> MapInfo in the GIS module.
>> >>>
>> >>> It would be useful if anyone could
>provide me with a few facts/figures on
>> >>> the use of GRASS outside of academia,
>especially in any large commercial
>> >>> companies etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> Many thanks
>> >>> Roy
>> >>>
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> -------
>> >>> Roy Sanderson
>> >>> Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability
>> >>> Devonshire Building
>> >>> University of Newcastle
>> >>> Newcastle upon Tyne
>> >>> NE1 7RU
>> >>> United Kingdom
>> >>>
>> >>> Tel: +44 191 246 4835
>> >>> Fax: +44 191 246 4999
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.ncl.ac.uk/environment/
>> >>> r.a.sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> grassuser mailing list
>> >> grassuser@grass.itc.it
>> >> http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Thomas E Adams
>> >National Weather Service
>> >Ohio River Forecast Center
>> >1901 South State Route 134
>> >Wilmington, OH 45177
>> >
>> >EMAIL: thomas.adams@noaa.gov
>> >
>> >VOICE: 937-383-0528
>> >FAX: 937-383-0033
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> grassuser mailing list
>> grassuser@grass.itc.it
>> http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser
>
>--
>Jachym Cepicky
>e-mail: jachym.cepicky@centrum.cz
>URL: http://les-ejk.cz
>GPG: http://les-ejk.cz/gnupg_public_key/jachym_cepicky-gpg_public_key.asc
>-----------------------------------------
>OFFICE:
>GDF-Hannover
>Mengendamm 16d
>30177 Hannover
>Germany
>e-mail: cepicky@gdf-hannover.de
>URL: http://gdf-hannover.de
>Tel.: +49 511-39088507
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>grassuser mailing list
>grassuser@grass.itc.it
>http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser

_______________________________________________
grassuser mailing list
grassuser@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grassuser

--
Jachym Cepicky
e-mail: jachym.cepicky@centrum.cz
URL: http://les-ejk.cz
GPG: http://les-ejk.cz/gnupg_public_key/jachym_cepicky-gpg_public_key.asc
-----------------------------------------
OFFICE:
GDF-Hannover
Mengendamm 16d
30177 Hannover
Germany
e-mail: cepicky@gdf-hannover.de
URL: http://gdf-hannover.de
Tel.: +49 511-39088507

From: Roy Sanderson <R.A.Sanderson@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:51:47 +0000
To: <grassuser@grass.itc.it>
Subject: [GRASS-user] ArcGIS, GRASS and employability

Hello

Last spring I converted a short course I give to some of our MSc

students,

from ArcGIS 9 to GRASS 6.0. Whilst the students had had no prior

exposure

to GIS (or indeed Linux), it was obvious that they progressed through

their

work much more rapidly and learnt more in terms of the fundamental
concepts, and I was pleased with the overall results.

However, the External Examiner's report for the MSc has criticised the
change to GRASS, stating that "it isn't known outside Newcastle" and that
it is harming the students' employment prospects on graduation. The
examiner is clearly wanting me to go back to using something like ArcGIS

or

MapInfo in the GIS module.

It would be useful if anyone could provide me with a few facts/figures on
the use of GRASS outside of academia, especially in any large commercial
companies etc.

Many thanks
Roy

It would be great if GRASS could be endorsed by an internationally-
recognised professional institution focused on the spatial information
industry.

Normally, professional institutions deliberately avoid endorsing one
vendor's product over another, for obvious reasons. Professionalism is
supposed to be about the skills you have, not the tools you use.

However, professional institutions are usually enthusiastic about
contributions to a body of knowledge. These include writing articles
for periodicals, publishing research, teaching materials, lectures
and seminars, mentoring, etc.

Free, open-source software is in the unique position of bridging
the divide between being a tool and being a body of knowledge. The code
is open and readable, and it can be argued that the code is essentially
an algorithm or procedure, a series of distinct steps that are carried
out to complete a technical task. Is source code any different to
other contributions to a professional body of knowledge? After all,
code is written, submitted, reviewed, edited and published.

Also, while a professional institution may be wary of endorsing a tool
that costs money, they may be willing to endorse a tool that is
available for free to the profession as a whole.

If this kind of endorsement could be achieved, it would be a coup
for GRASS.

nick

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