[GRASS5] LRS

GRASS GIS GRASS GIS developer
1

I would like to include my implementation of LRS
(lineare reference system) which was available here
http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/index.html
in standard GRASS distribution.

The LRS supports georeferencing of points and segments
given by linear feature, e.g. a road and a position on the
linear feature in real world for exemple km+meters.
It can also do reverse task, that means to report linear feature
and position (road nr., km+m) for point (near the road).

I have a question about terminology, I am in doubts how to call

1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
  milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
  but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
  not the physical object.

2) The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
    from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
    The distance is given for example in meters or feets.

3) How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
    Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
    byt this module: http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png

I hope that native english speakers and people working with LRS can help.

Thanks
Radim

2

2006/3/31, Radim Blazek <radim.blazek@gmail.com>:

I would like to include my implementation of LRS
(lineare reference system) which was available here
http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/index.html
in standard GRASS distribution.

The LRS supports georeferencing of points and segments
given by linear feature, e.g. a road and a position on the
linear feature in real world for exemple km+meters.
It can also do reverse task, that means to report linear feature
and position (road nr., km+m) for point (near the road).

I have a question about terminology, I am in doubts how to call

  1. The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
    milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
    but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
    not the physical object.

  2. The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
    from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
    The distance is given for example in meters or feets.

  3. How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
    Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
    byt this module: http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png

I hope that native english speakers and people working with LRS can help.

Thanks
Radim

Hello,
Good job, LRS is very interesting. Maybe I’m wrong, but may it be usefull for one-dimensional hydraulic/river modelling ? Strokes could be cross-sections with associated profile. I’m thinking about river modelling software like FEQ or HEC-RAS.
http://www.hec.usace.army.mil/software/hec-ras/
http://il.water.usgs.gov/proj/feq
http://www.iqdotdt.com/

  1. v.lrs.label ?

Thanks
Laurent

3

Radim,
(cc strk)

this is great news! Maybe the wording could be synchronized
with that of PostGIS?
http://postgis.refractions.net/docs/ch06.html#id2793484

I think that Christoph Spoerri and strk are working on it:
http://postgis.refractions.net/pipermail/postgis-devel/2005-April/001338.html
http://postgis.refractions.net/pipermail/postgis-devel/2005-November/001652.html

Since both GRASS-LRS and PostGIS-LRS are in development,
it will hopefully be possible to synchronize the terminology.

Markus

On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 11:13:24AM +0200, Radim Blazek wrote:

I would like to include my implementation of LRS
(lineare reference system) which was available here
http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/index.html
in standard GRASS distribution.

The LRS supports georeferencing of points and segments
given by linear feature, e.g. a road and a position on the
linear feature in real world for exemple km+meters.
It can also do reverse task, that means to report linear feature
and position (road nr., km+m) for point (near the road).

I have a question about terminology, I am in doubts how to call

1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
  milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
  but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
  not the physical object.

2) The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
    from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
    The distance is given for example in meters or feets.

3) How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
    Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
    byt this module: http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png

I hope that native english speakers and people working with LRS can help.

Thanks
Radim

4

On 3/31/06, Laurent C. <lrntct@gmail.com> wrote:

2006/3/31, Radim Blazek <radim.blazek@gmail.com>:

> I would like to include my implementation of LRS
> (lineare reference system) which was available here
> http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/index.html
> in standard GRASS distribution.
>
> The LRS supports georeferencing of points and segments
> given by linear feature, e.g. a road and a position on the
> linear feature in real world for exemple km+meters.
> It can also do reverse task, that means to report linear feature
> and position (road nr., km+m) for point (near the road).
>
> I have a question about terminology, I am in doubts how to call
>
> 1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
> milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
> but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
> not the physical object.
>
> 2) The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
> from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
> The distance is given for example in meters or feets.
>
> 3) How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
> Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
> byt this module:
http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png
>
> I hope that native english speakers and people working with LRS can help.
>
> Thanks
> Radim
>

Hello,
Good job, LRS is very interesting. Maybe I'm wrong, but may it be usefull
for one-dimensional hydraulic/river modelling ? Strokes could be
cross-sections with associated profile. I'm thinking about river modelling
software like FEQ or HEC-RAS.
http://www.hec.usace.army.mil/software/hec-ras/
http://il.water.usgs.gov/proj/feq
http://www.iqdotdt.com/

I worry that LRS is far from anything like that, it just creates points/segments
for given stationing.

Radim

3) v.lrs.label ?

Thanks
Laurent

5

On 3/31/06, Markus Neteler <neteler@itc.it> wrote:

Radim,
(cc strk)

this is great news! Maybe the wording could be synchronized
with that of PostGIS?
http://postgis.refractions.net/docs/ch06.html#id2793484

I think that Christoph Spoerri and strk are working on it:
http://postgis.refractions.net/pipermail/postgis-devel/2005-April/001338.html
http://postgis.refractions.net/pipermail/postgis-devel/2005-November/001652.html

Since both GRASS-LRS and PostGIS-LRS are in development,
it will hopefully be possible to synchronize the terminology.

The functions in PostGIS do not correspond exactly to v.lrs.* which
can better support real world data. The equivalent for line_interpolate_point()
and line_substring() in GRASS would be v.segment or Vect_line_segment()

v.lrs.* does more, it can generate LRS from layer of lines and points
eg roads and milestones.

I am using the mentioned PostGIS functions for example in WebGIS application
(PHP/PostGIS/AJAX) which is using the data (linear layer + lrs table)
generated by v.lrs.create. The lrs table is mapping real world to GIS.
The mapping is necessary because lines in GIS do not exacly correspond
to physical objects.

The LRS in GRASS is on higher application level then the functions in PostGIS.
Note that I dont say it is superior, it just do something else - more.
That is the reason we cannot probably find equivalents in terminology.

Radim

Markus

On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 11:13:24AM +0200, Radim Blazek wrote:
> I would like to include my implementation of LRS
> (lineare reference system) which was available here
> http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/index.html
> in standard GRASS distribution.
>
> The LRS supports georeferencing of points and segments
> given by linear feature, e.g. a road and a position on the
> linear feature in real world for exemple km+meters.
> It can also do reverse task, that means to report linear feature
> and position (road nr., km+m) for point (near the road).
>
> I have a question about terminology, I am in doubts how to call
>
> 1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
> milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
> but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
> not the physical object.
>
> 2) The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
> from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
> The distance is given for example in meters or feets.
>
> 3) How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
> Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
> byt this module: http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png
>
> I hope that native english speakers and people working with LRS can help.
>
> Thanks
> Radim

6

On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 04:38:44PM +0200, Tim Semmelhaack wrote:

Hello,

>
> 1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
> milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
> but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
> not the physical object.

I German we use the expression "Kilometrierung" but I haven't found an
English counterpart.

Here is some discussion on that:

http://dict.leo.org/cgi-bin/dict/forum.cgi?action=show&group=forum002_new&sort_order=&list_size=30&list_skip=60&file=20050820084422

Kilometrierung = chainage?

Markus

7

I have summarized your suggestions in one mail
and I added also the terms currently used in the modules
which I did not tell you before because I did not want
to influence your mind.

Please tell me if the terms currently used are at least acceptable
because using these original names I can avoid some extra work.

On 3/31/06, Radim Blazek <radim.blazek@gmail.com> wrote:

I would like to include my implementation of LRS
(lineare reference system) which was available here
http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/index.html
in standard GRASS distribution.

The LRS supports georeferencing of points and segments
given by linear feature, e.g. a road and a position on the
linear feature in real world for exemple km+meters.
It can also do reverse task, that means to report linear feature
and position (road nr., km+m) for point (near the road).

I have a question about terminology, I am in doubts how to call

1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
  milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
  but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
  not the physical object.

Currently called 'milepost'.

On 3/31/06, Tim Semmelhaack <t.semmelhaack@hamburg-consult.de> wrote:

I German we use the expression "Kilometrierung" but I haven't found an
English counterpart.

On 4/1/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

In the U.S. it will be called like "Mile 17".

Yes, it will be probably difficult to avoid mile or kilometer in the
name.

On 4/1/06, Markus Neteler <neteler@itc.it> wrote:

http://dict.leo.org/cgi-bin/dict/forum.cgi?action=show&group=forum002_new&sort_order=&list_size=30&list_skip=60&file=20050820084422
Kilometrierung = chainage?

According to the link they use 'chainage' for complete notati,
i.e. km+m that means 1) + 2) :
| Chainage is entered and displayed as whole kilometers (1,000 meters) plus a
| number of meters.

2) The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
    from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
    The distance is given for example in meters or feets.

Currently called 'offset'

On 4/1/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

interval?

I feel that interval is something between 2 points on the same
level of importance and without 'direction'.

the "lead"? (as in leader not Pb)

3) How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
    Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
    byt this module: http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png

Currently called 'v.lrs.stationing'

On 3/31/06, Laurent C. <lrntct@gmail.com> wrote:

v.lrs.label ?

There are also the strokes not just labels.

On 3/31/06, Tim Semmelhaack <t.semmelhaack@hamburg-consult.de> wrote:

In Arcview the labels of linear referencing are called "hatch"

Hatch is usually used in CAD for areas filled by parallel lines.

Radim

8

A couple ideas on terminology below.

How about using the GPS term 'waypoints' this avoids reference to a
particular distance measuring system (mileposts).

On 4/7/06 2:03 AM, "Radim Blazek" <radim.blazek@gmail.com> wrote:

1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
  milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
  but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
  not the physical object.

Currently called 'milepost'.

On 3/31/06, Tim Semmelhaack <t.semmelhaack@hamburg-consult.de> wrote:

I German we use the expression "Kilometrierung" but I haven't found an
English counterpart.

On 4/1/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

In the U.S. it will be called like "Mile 17".

Yes, it will be probably difficult to avoid mile or kilometer in the
name.

On 4/1/06, Markus Neteler <neteler@itc.it> wrote:

http://dict.leo.org/cgi-bin/dict/forum.cgi?action=show&group=forum002_new&sor
t_order=&list_size=30&list_skip=60&file=20050820084422
Kilometrierung = chainage?

According to the link they use 'chainage' for complete notati,
i.e. km+m that means 1) + 2) :
| Chainage is entered and displayed as whole kilometers (1,000 meters) plus a
| number of meters.

2) The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
    from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
    The distance is given for example in meters or feets.

Currently called 'offset'

This seems like a good term.

On 4/1/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

interval?

I feel that interval is something between 2 points on the same
level of importance and without 'direction'.

the "lead"? (as in leader not Pb)

3) How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
    Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
    byt this module: http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png

Currently called 'v.lrs.stationing'

On 3/31/06, Laurent C. <lrntct@gmail.com> wrote:

v.lrs.label ?

There are also the strokes not just labels.

'Tick marks' or just 'ticks' is probably more appropriate.

Michael
___________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

WWW - http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
Phone: 480-965-6262
Fax: 480-965-7671

9

I don't think waypoint is a good term to use:

A "milepost" is a datum in a linear coordinate system.
A "waypoint" is a station used to define a navigable route.

A waypoint can be defined in terms of a milepost, but the converse is
not true. A waypoint is defined only on the chart (or GPS today) as a
means of directing the course of a journey. Whereas a milepost (or
milestone) is often a real sign posted on the side of the road. A
milepost is a name for a spot on the earth.

Considering how much naviagation is being done in GIS through the use
of GPS waypoints, it would be confusing to introduce an unconventional
definition of the word "waypoint".

On 4/7/06, Michael Barton <michael.barton@asu.edu> wrote:

A couple ideas on terminology below.

How about using the GPS term 'waypoints' this avoids reference to a
particular distance measuring system (mileposts).

On 4/7/06 2:03 AM, "Radim Blazek" <radim.blazek@gmail.com> wrote:

>> 1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
>> milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
>> but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
>> not the physical object.
>
> Currently called 'milepost'.
>
> On 3/31/06, Tim Semmelhaack <t.semmelhaack@hamburg-consult.de> wrote:
>> I German we use the expression "Kilometrierung" but I haven't found an
>> English counterpart.
>
> On 4/1/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> In the U.S. it will be called like "Mile 17".
>
> Yes, it will be probably difficult to avoid mile or kilometer in the
> name.
>
> On 4/1/06, Markus Neteler <neteler@itc.it> wrote:
>> http://dict.leo.org/cgi-bin/dict/forum.cgi?action=show&group=forum002_new&sor
>> t_order=&list_size=30&list_skip=60&file=20050820084422
>> Kilometrierung = chainage?
>
> According to the link they use 'chainage' for complete notati,
> i.e. km+m that means 1) + 2) :
> | Chainage is entered and displayed as whole kilometers (1,000 meters) plus a
> | number of meters.
>
>> 2) The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
>> from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
>> The distance is given for example in meters or feets.
>
> Currently called 'offset'

This seems like a good term.

>
> On 4/1/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> interval?
>
> I feel that interval is something between 2 points on the same
> level of importance and without 'direction'.
>
>> the "lead"? (as in leader not Pb)
>
>> 3) How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
>> Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
>> byt this module: http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png
>
> Currently called 'v.lrs.stationing'
>
> On 3/31/06, Laurent C. <lrntct@gmail.com> wrote:
>> v.lrs.label ?
>
> There are also the strokes not just labels.

'Tick marks' or just 'ticks' is probably more appropriate.

Michael
___________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

WWW - http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
Phone: 480-965-6262
Fax: 480-965-7671

_______________________________________________
grass5 mailing list
grass5@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grass5

--
David Finlayson

10

Do mileposts mean this in countries that have never used the English system?
If so, it seems fine. I was just worried about international terminology.

Michael

On 4/8/06 11:23 AM, "David Finlayson" <david.p.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think waypoint is a good term to use:

A "milepost" is a datum in a linear coordinate system.
A "waypoint" is a station used to define a navigable route.

A waypoint can be defined in terms of a milepost, but the converse is
not true. A waypoint is defined only on the chart (or GPS today) as a
means of directing the course of a journey. Whereas a milepost (or
milestone) is often a real sign posted on the side of the road. A
milepost is a name for a spot on the earth.

Considering how much naviagation is being done in GIS through the use
of GPS waypoints, it would be confusing to introduce an unconventional
definition of the word "waypoint".

On 4/7/06, Michael Barton <michael.barton@asu.edu> wrote:

A couple ideas on terminology below.

How about using the GPS term 'waypoints' this avoids reference to a
particular distance measuring system (mileposts).

On 4/7/06 2:03 AM, "Radim Blazek" <radim.blazek@gmail.com> wrote:

1) The value specifying certain fix point in real world, e.g.
  milepost, milestone. The point has usually a physical representation
  but I mean the value it represents i.e. mile, kilometer,
  not the physical object.

Currently called 'milepost'.

On 3/31/06, Tim Semmelhaack <t.semmelhaack@hamburg-consult.de> wrote:

I German we use the expression "Kilometrierung" but I haven't found an
English counterpart.

On 4/1/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

In the U.S. it will be called like "Mile 17".

Yes, it will be probably difficult to avoid mile or kilometer in the
name.

On 4/1/06, Markus Neteler <neteler@itc.it> wrote:

http://dict.leo.org/cgi-bin/dict/forum.cgi?action=show&group=forum002_new&s
or
t_order=&list_size=30&list_skip=60&file=20050820084422
Kilometrierung = chainage?

According to the link they use 'chainage' for complete notati,
i.e. km+m that means 1) + 2) :
| Chainage is entered and displayed as whole kilometers (1,000 meters) plus
a
| number of meters.

2) The value which specifies the distance along a linear object
    from 1) (from milepost) to a certain position on the linear feature.
    The distance is given for example in meters or feets.

Currently called 'offset'

This seems like a good term.

On 4/1/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

interval?

I feel that interval is something between 2 points on the same
level of importance and without 'direction'.

the "lead"? (as in leader not Pb)

3) How to call the module which generates labels of existing LRS
    Here is example of a map with labels and strokes generated
    byt this module: http://mpa.itc.it/radim/lrs/stationing-small.png

Currently called 'v.lrs.stationing'

On 3/31/06, Laurent C. <lrntct@gmail.com> wrote:

v.lrs.label ?

There are also the strokes not just labels.

'Tick marks' or just 'ticks' is probably more appropriate.

Michael
___________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

WWW - http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
Phone: 480-965-6262
Fax: 480-965-7671

_______________________________________________
grass5 mailing list
grass5@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grass5

--
David Finlayson

___________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

WWW - http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton
Phone: 480-965-6262
Fax: 480-965-7671

11

On 4/8/06, David Finlayson <david.p.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think waypoint is a good term to use:

Considering how much naviagation is being done in GIS through the use
of GPS waypoints, it would be confusing to introduce an unconventional
definition of the word "waypoint".

I also think that waypoint could be confusing.

On 4/8/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Currently called 'milepost'.

"mile marker" is sometime heard.. "milepost" is more the physical object
to me. "distance mark"?

Yes, I was looking for something expressing the value not the object
but it seems to be hard as the word milepost/milestone is usually also used
for the value it represents?

On 4/8/06, Michael Barton <michael.barton@asu.edu> wrote:

Do mileposts mean this in countries that have never used the English system?
If so, it seems fine. I was just worried about international terminology.

It seems that the term appeares also in some other languages,
but I have no idea if it is realy widely known: Meilenstein,
piedra miliar/poste miliar, pietra miliare, milnik, mijlpaal, milstolpe.

The name comes originaly from Roman system: milia passuum

> Currently called 'v.lrs.stationing'

a real word, but somewhat awkward. I don't think it will help people
guess what the module does. (means little to me anyway)

> > v.lrs.label ?
>
> There are also the strokes not just labels.

Still I think it is ok. Labeling can cover decorations/ticks/ and the
act of drawing marks. v.lrs.label Much better than "v.lrs.stationing"
anyway. "v.lrs.ticks"? ... mmmph

OK, v.lrs.label.

I think that we can use 'milepost' and 'v.lrs.label'.
What do you think about 'offset' for 2)?

Radim

12

> "mile marker" is sometime heard.. "milepost" is more the physical
> object to me. "distance mark"?

Yes, I was looking for something expressing the value not the object
but it seems to be hard as the word milepost/milestone is usually also
used for the value it represents?

Correct. "mile 17" or "mile post/marker 17" is common (to me).

> Do mileposts mean this in countries that have never used the English
> system? If so, it seems fine. I was just worried about international
> terminology.

Most places only went metric ~30-35 years ago AFAIK, the terminology is
either still in use, or if not used by the young'uns, most people still
know what you are talking about. At least around here. There are even
old wooden signs about here once and a while (eg tavern 10 mi.).

It seems that the term appeares also in some other languages,
but I have no idea if it is realy widely known: Meilenstein,
piedra miliar/poste miliar, pietra miliare, milnik, mijlpaal,
milstolpe.

The name comes originaly from Roman system: milia passuum

GRASS translated into Latin.. this would be entertaining.
GIS for masochists.

I think that we can use 'milepost' and 'v.lrs.label'.

I agree these are good.

What do you think about 'offset' for 2)?

"Offset" is perfect.

Hamish

13

I have added the LRS to CVS, new modules:

v.lrs.create
v.lrs.segment
v.lrs.where
v.lrs.label

Radim

On 4/11/06, Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > "mile marker" is sometime heard.. "milepost" is more the physical
> > object to me. "distance mark"?
>
> Yes, I was looking for something expressing the value not the object
> but it seems to be hard as the word milepost/milestone is usually also
> used for the value it represents?

Correct. "mile 17" or "mile post/marker 17" is common (to me).

> > Do mileposts mean this in countries that have never used the English
> > system? If so, it seems fine. I was just worried about international
> > terminology.

Most places only went metric ~30-35 years ago AFAIK, the terminology is
either still in use, or if not used by the young'uns, most people still
know what you are talking about. At least around here. There are even
old wooden signs about here once and a while (eg tavern 10 mi.).

> It seems that the term appeares also in some other languages,
> but I have no idea if it is realy widely known: Meilenstein,
> piedra miliar/poste miliar, pietra miliare, milnik, mijlpaal,
> milstolpe.
>
> The name comes originaly from Roman system: milia passuum

GRASS translated into Latin.. this would be entertaining.
GIS for masochists.

> I think that we can use 'milepost' and 'v.lrs.label'.

I agree these are good.

> What do you think about 'offset' for 2)?

"Offset" is perfect.

Hamish