[GRASSLIST:108] Re: Considering replacing ESRI

I recently had the eye-opening experience of working in a team with two other
consulting firms, two universities and a state agency all working on an
interstate lawsuit. I worked with GRASS and Postgres, while all of the other
parties used ArcInfo and/or ArcView.

One of my first tasks was to dissect a large body of GIS data that was
exported from ArcInfo coverages by a US government agency. For managing and
analysing the large coverages, GRASS performed better than ArcInfo and much
better than ArcView. Most parties who tried working with the data failed to
get anywhere in the analysis and they ultimately had to make decisions with
little understanding of the data. GRASS gave us a much better understanding
of the data. At that time and through the following year GRASS allowed us to
make cost-effective use of the data. It was a plus for our client.

More recently in the same work an unexpected scheduling change cut in half the
time we had to complete a terrain analysis. Working with GRASS we were able
to complete the entire analysis to a level that exceeded our experts'
requirements and well within the deadline. One of our cooperators tried
performing the same analysis using ArcInfo and ArcView installations at two
different facilities. Their effort stopped after the first step in the
analysis because ArcView crashed two computers before it produced any results.
By the time they got things working we already had results in hand.

GRASS has a long way to go before most people in the consulting fields or
govenment planning agencies see it as a realistic alternative to ArcInfo or
ArcView. There are a number of problems getting GRASS the recognition that it
deserves. Without that recognition is will be difficult to convert existing
ESRI installations to GRASS or to make new GRASS installations where ESRI
products are an alternative.

Technically, I see a few problems in the comparison:

Most GRASS analytical tools are raster-based. The resolution and precision of
those analyses are scale-dependent. The vector-based tools provided by the
ESRI products can resolve detail and provide precision that are not dependent
on scale. For instance, in a GIS coverage that spans 10's of thousands of
square miles ArcInfo can accurately represent (e.g.) canals that are only a
few feet across. As a practical matter, GRASS's raster tools cannot do the
same thing. In my experience this is a capability of the vector-based tools
that is unnecessary and frequently abused, but it is still seen as an
advantage for the ESRI products.

ESRI offers a polished product with complete support at a pretty high price.
GRASS is not a polished product. It doesn't have many critical bugs left but
there are capabilities missing, planned features that aren't yet implimented
and software included in the GRASS source package that doesn't work. GRASS
has no licensing fees, but third-party support for GRASS is hard to find.
Large-scale GRASS installations need to be supported internally by one or more
people on staff who have a knowledge of GIS and the ability to modify and
debug C code and shell scripts.

GRASS tools are usually very conservative in their use of system resources.
That lets GRASS work on computers that are too underpowered to do the same
analysis with ESRI products. It also makes the analysis slow and inefficient.

GRASS's built-in database capabilities are poor -- they are not at all
competitive with ArcInfo. GRASS can interface with full-featured database
servers (Postgres, for instance) but the interface is cumbersome and incomplete.

I'm sure that a lot of agencies and companies that are currently working with
ESRI products could get the same jobs done with less money by switching to
GRASS and a freely-available database product. The real problem is to
convince decision-makers that GRASS can get the job done and save money.

Roger Miller

Roger,

thanks for sharing your experiences.

On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 09:02:26AM -0700, Roger Miller wrote:

Technically, I see a few problems in the comparison:

Most GRASS analytical tools are raster-based. The resolution and precision of
those analyses are scale-dependent. The vector-based tools provided by the
ESRI products can resolve detail and provide precision that are not dependent
on scale. For instance, in a GIS coverage that spans 10's of thousands of
square miles ArcInfo can accurately represent (e.g.) canals that are only a
few feet across. As a practical matter, GRASS's raster tools cannot do the
same thing. In my experience this is a capability of the vector-based tools
that is unnecessary and frequently abused, but it is still seen as an
advantage for the ESRI products.

Note that GRASS has some vector functionality and GRASS 5.2 will
bring a matured vector support.

The development team for GRASS 5.1 lead my Radim Blazek
already completed the vector support in the experimental version.

Help is always welcomed to accelerate the process.

ESRI offers a polished product with complete support at a pretty high price.
GRASS is not a polished product. It doesn't have many critical bugs left but
there are capabilities missing, planned features that aren't yet implimented
and software included in the GRASS source package that doesn't work. GRASS
has no licensing fees, but third-party support for GRASS is hard to find.

But it can be found.

We have a small list of companies on the FreeGIS CD
compare http://freegis.org/FreeGIS-CD-doc-online/1.2.2/service.en.html
and the menu on the right side.
(We only list the companies which would pass the criteria for the
GNU business network.) Of course there are many more.

  Bernhard

To add to Roger's thoughts...

The two most critical decisions I believe you have to make are:

1. What are the functional requirements of the geospatial end users?
2. What applications are available to fulfill those requirements?

ESRI tools have come a long way in the 20 or so years they've had a
commercial product. Their latest architecture, for as modular and
extensible as it is now, has entirely neglected a large contingency of
their user base, the open architecture end-user, (i.e., *nix). That
WAS their platform previous to their latest COM+ architecture that Arc
8.x is built upon. That is IMO, unfortunate and will drive users that
cherish the power of open architecture,(opposed to open source), to
seek alternatives. It is also a sad testament to the leverage Microsoft
has on the world. I further believe that the collective world will
eventually chose the open path when they reach the fork in the road
requiring them to make a decision, (as it sounds like your organization
has in their sites), reqardless of what some (influential) capitalists
will try to impose on everyone else. (FTR, I too am a capitalist -
for now - just not one of the influential ones with a greedy desire
to get to the top, and knock everyone else off).

Last thought, the most critical component of spatial analysis is
maintained not in the application, but in the data. With the emergence
and continuing improvement to open source projects like PostGIS (GPL
license - although it extends PostgreSQL which uses BSD license), you're
safe and may want to consider going this route first eliminating
the high licensing costs of ArcSDE and Oracle, while still using
ArcView as the application until a more robust vector-based open
source geospatial analysis tool becomes available. It will, its
just a matter of time and colaboration.

-jv

Quoting Roger Miller <roger@spinn.net>:

I recently had the eye-opening experience of working in a team with two
other
consulting firms, two universities and a state agency all working on
an
interstate lawsuit. I worked with GRASS and Postgres, while all of the
other
parties used ArcInfo and/or ArcView.

One of my first tasks was to dissect a large body of GIS data that was
exported from ArcInfo coverages by a US government agency. For managing
and
analysing the large coverages, GRASS performed better than ArcInfo and
much
better than ArcView. Most parties who tried working with the data
failed to
get anywhere in the analysis and they ultimately had to make decisions
with
little understanding of the data. GRASS gave us a much better
understanding
of the data. At that time and through the following year GRASS allowed
us to
make cost-effective use of the data. It was a plus for our client.

More recently in the same work an unexpected scheduling change cut in
half the
time we had to complete a terrain analysis. Working with GRASS we were
able
to complete the entire analysis to a level that exceeded our experts'
requirements and well within the deadline. One of our cooperators
tried
performing the same analysis using ArcInfo and ArcView installations at
two
different facilities. Their effort stopped after the first step in
the
analysis because ArcView crashed two computers before it produced any
results.
By the time they got things working we already had results in hand.

GRASS has a long way to go before most people in the consulting fields
or
govenment planning agencies see it as a realistic alternative to ArcInfo
or
ArcView. There are a number of problems getting GRASS the recognition
that it
deserves. Without that recognition is will be difficult to convert
existing
ESRI installations to GRASS or to make new GRASS installations where
ESRI
products are an alternative.

Technically, I see a few problems in the comparison:

Most GRASS analytical tools are raster-based. The resolution and
precision of
those analyses are scale-dependent. The vector-based tools provided by
the
ESRI products can resolve detail and provide precision that are not
dependent
on scale. For instance, in a GIS coverage that spans 10's of thousands
of
square miles ArcInfo can accurately represent (e.g.) canals that are
only a
few feet across. As a practical matter, GRASS's raster tools cannot do
the
same thing. In my experience this is a capability of the vector-based
tools
that is unnecessary and frequently abused, but it is still seen as an
advantage for the ESRI products.

ESRI offers a polished product with complete support at a pretty high
price.
GRASS is not a polished product. It doesn't have many critical bugs
left but
there are capabilities missing, planned features that aren't yet
implimented
and software included in the GRASS source package that doesn't work.
GRASS
has no licensing fees, but third-party support for GRASS is hard to
find.
Large-scale GRASS installations need to be supported internally by one
or more
people on staff who have a knowledge of GIS and the ability to modify
and
debug C code and shell scripts.

GRASS tools are usually very conservative in their use of system
resources.
That lets GRASS work on computers that are too underpowered to do the
same
analysis with ESRI products. It also makes the analysis slow and
inefficient.

GRASS's built-in database capabilities are poor -- they are not at all
competitive with ArcInfo. GRASS can interface with full-featured
database
servers (Postgres, for instance) but the interface is cumbersome and
incomplete.

I'm sure that a lot of agencies and companies that are currently working
with
ESRI products could get the same jobs done with less money by switching
to
GRASS and a freely-available database product. The real problem is to
convince decision-makers that GRASS can get the job done and save
money.

Roger Miller

On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 06:18:12PM +0200, Bernhard Reiter wrote:
[...]

We have a small list of companies on the FreeGIS CD
compare FreeGIS.org
and the menu on the right side.
(We only list the companies which would pass the criteria for the
GNU business network.) Of course there are many more.

Yes - compare:

http://grass.itc.it/commercial.html

which is also an incomplete list.

Cheers

Markus Neteler