[GRASSLIST:1082] Looking for a guru...

GRASS GRASS user
1

Hey there:

I have been running in circles for about 2 months now trying to get
GRASS installed on my OS X box and have yet to get it successfully
running. If there is someone out there who has successfully installed
and is currently running GRASS on their Mac, and would have the time
to talk me through yet another installation attempt, I would
appreciate the assist. My "friends" keep telling me to stop beating
my head against the OS X wall and simply use a Linux box, but being a
Mac-fanatic I would really like to have it working on my Mac. :wink:

Thanks.

Bill
--

Bill Dickinson
GIS Specialist
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Environmental & Safety Branch, Code 250
wdickins@pop700.gsfc.nasa.gov

2

Hey there, Kirk:

I have tried several approaches. I started out by trying to compile from source by tracking down each component, installing, and then making sure everything worked together properly. Most of the components (gdal, R-language, tcl/tk, etc.) installed without a problem, but I ran into difficulties when I got to the point of installing GRASS itself and Postgresql. I ran around in circles for a little bit with this until I cam across Fink - the OS X package manager.

Once I had Fink and realized that there was an install of GRASS through it, I cleaned out my previous install attempt and tried to do it completely through Fink. At first glance, just about everything you need can be installed through Fink except a small handful of dependents like R-Language. However, I started running into a new problem where the GRASS and Postgresql .info files were not written correctly. Postgresql .info was looking for several things in the wrong places for OS X, though this was corrected with a new .info file last month. The GRASS .info file also had some code not quite right and no response from the maintainer of the file about when it would be updated.

I ran into a lot of problems with Postgresql, so I decided to try MySQL as the database. The MySQL install went smoothly, though I did start running into problems with getting GRASS to talk to MySQL properly. I am currently at the point where both GRASS and MySQL are installed, but I can't use GRASS yet because I haven't found the right approach to make them work together - GRASS can't use or write to the MySQL database folders yet.

I have done a decent amount of surfing on the web and it seems like all the working installations of GRASS are on Linux boxes. With each problem I had I found other people who had similar problems trying to install GRASS on OS X, which leads to a lack of confidence that this is an easy thing to do at this point.

There is always the option of OpenOSX's GRASS CD, but I don't currently have any money at work for purchasing software. NASA uses ESRI's ArcGIS as it's "official" GIS solution, but I have been trying to show that there is another option that would work just as well as ESRI without the ridiculous cost - another reason that I have been trying to install without paying for anything.

I *want* to use my Mac as my primary GIS application platform, but the only reason I am still beating my head against this wall is because I am just plain stubborn. :wink: ESRI leaves me stranded on a Wintel machine, but the Mac is a better platform - if I could just get the damned software working correctly.

Overall, at this point in time, I wouldn't recommend relying on GRASS on a Mac as your GIS solution. Or if you do, also budget for OpenOSX's GRASS cd-rom as it does have a limited amount of technical support that may make the difference in getting everything working quickly. Maybe in another 6-12 months doing a self-install of GRASS will work better, but right now it is an uphill struggle.

Bill

Bill,

I find your email troubling in that I was about to purchase a new G5
with the intention of running grass. I am currently using a freebsd box,
but am in need of some faster hardware and more disk space. However,
before I run off and buy a g5, I'd like to think that the install would
go smoothly. Are you compiling grass from source or is there a binary
that you are trying to get installed?

If you get off list responses to your querry would you mind either
forwarding them to me or doing a summary (once you get grass running on
os x)? Thanks in advace...

Kirk

On Tue, 2003-09-02 at 09:23, Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

Hey there:

I have been running in circles for about 2 months now trying to get
GRASS installed on my OS X box and have yet to get it successfully
running. If there is someone out there who has successfully installed
and is currently running GRASS on their Mac, and would have the time

> to talk me through yet another installation attempt, I would

appreciate the assist. My "friends" keep telling me to stop beating
my head against the OS X wall and simply use a Linux box, but being a
Mac-fanatic I would really like to have it working on my Mac. :wink:

Thanks.

Bill

--
Kirk R. Wythers Department of Forest Resources
Tel: 612.625.2261 University of Minnesota
Fax: 612.625.5212 1530 Cleveland Ave. N
Email: kwythers@umn.edu Saint Paul, MN 55108 USA

--

Bill Dickinson
GIS Specialist
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Environmental & Safety Branch, Code 250
wdickins@pop700.gsfc.nasa.gov

3

Hey there, Gretchen:

I do not have the OpenOSX CD yet, though it is on my list if I can't get it running without it. I am trying to show NASA that there is an alternative GIS solution to ESRI without the costs, so I am trying not to spend any money on the demo I want to develop. It seems like it shouldn't be that big of a deal downloading and installing everything myself and for most things it hasn't been. The problem I am currently stuck on is getting GRASS to talk correctly to the database.

You mention the LOCATION and MAPSET, which happens to be the specific hurdle I am currently trying to get over. GRASS is installed as is MySQL as my database, but I can't get GRASS to acknowledge a LOCATION and MAPSET within the MySQL folders. I was getting quite frustrated several weeks ago and put the project aside so I could take a break from it all.

It sounds to me like the OpenOSX approach is the only way to go right now. I tried using the Fink install of GRASS, but ran into other problems that turned me off from that approach.

Bill

Have you tried the Open OS X GRASS CD (that costs about $50, http://openosx.com/grass/)? I was able to install it without too much trouble, minor stuff really, because I am not much of a Unix person. Unfortunately, I didn't write anything down that I ran into. I did have and continue to have a problem creating new locations with the GUI. I have to use the text mode. This has been the experience of other users as well. If you are having trouble getting the tutorial files to open, take a look at the ~.grassrc5 file and make sure it has a LOCATION and MAPSET that GRASS will recognize.

Hope this is helpful. Other than getting it running, I haven't used it yet for doing a real project.

Gretchen Gallegos
Environmental Scientist
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
P.O. Box 808, L-629
Livermore, CA

Hey there:

I have been running in circles for about 2 months now trying to get
GRASS installed on my OS X box and have yet to get it successfully
running. If there is someone out there who has successfully installed
and is currently running GRASS on their Mac, and would have the time
to talk me through yet another installation attempt, I would
appreciate the assist. My "friends" keep telling me to stop beating
my head against the OS X wall and simply use a Linux box, but being a
Mac-fanatic I would really like to have it working on my Mac. :wink:

Thanks.

Bill
--

Bill Dickinson
GIS Specialist
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Environmental & Safety Branch, Code 250
wdickins@pop700.gsfc.nasa.gov

--

Bill Dickinson
GIS Specialist
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Environmental & Safety Branch, Code 250
wdickins@pop700.gsfc.nasa.gov

4

I'm no guru in any sense, but have you tried just installing the precompiled binaries from the web site (http://www.geo.unipr.it/~grassmirror/grass5/binary/mac_os_x/)? My understanding is that these are the same binaries that are used on the Open OSX CD. I haven't tried the postgres option, but have been using GRASS on Mac OSX for a number of years (since they brought out OSX) and installed it many times without real problems. I would be interested to know if these include the postgres interface, though. I installed postgres without too much difficulty, too, using the binaries from Marc Liyanage (http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/postgresql/). I have not yet used them together, or tried to. I too would much rather run it on OSX than on a linux box.

Yours,

Nick Cahill
Dept. of Art History
Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison
Madison, WI 53706

On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 09:23 AM, Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

Hey there:

I have been running in circles for about 2 months now trying to get
GRASS installed on my OS X box and have yet to get it successfully
running. If there is someone out there who has successfully installed
and is currently running GRASS on their Mac, and would have the time
to talk me through yet another installation attempt, I would
appreciate the assist. My "friends" keep telling me to stop beating
my head against the OS X wall and simply use a Linux box, but being a
Mac-fanatic I would really like to have it working on my Mac. :wink:

Thanks.

Bill
--

Bill Dickinson
GIS Specialist
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Environmental & Safety Branch, Code 250
wdickins@pop700.gsfc.nasa.gov

5

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

I ran into a lot of problems with Postgresql, so I decided to try MySQL
as the database. The MySQL install went smoothly, though I did start
running into problems with getting GRASS to talk to MySQL properly. I am
currently at the point where both GRASS and MySQL are installed, but I
can't use GRASS yet because I haven't found the right approach to make
them work together - GRASS can't use or write to the MySQL database
folders yet.

Do you absolutely need to use a database right now? It may be best to
get started with grass with grass's native files instead, before getting
database support working.

I have done a decent amount of surfing on the web and it seems like all
the working installations of GRASS are on Linux boxes. With each problem
I had I found other people who had similar problems trying to install
GRASS on OS X, which leads to a lack of confidence that this is an easy
thing to do at this point.

There is always the option of OpenOSX's GRASS CD, but I don't currently
have any money at work for purchasing software. NASA uses ESRI's ArcGIS
as it's "official" GIS solution, but I have been trying to show that
there is another option that would work just as well as ESRI without the
ridiculous cost - another reason that I have been trying to install
without paying for anything.

I *want* to use my Mac as my primary GIS application platform, but the
only reason I am still beating my head against this wall is because I am
just plain stubborn. :wink: ESRI leaves me stranded on a Wintel machine,
but the Mac is a better platform - if I could just get the damned
software working correctly.

The Mac, or OSX (we need to know what your requirement is, you seem to
equate Mac with OSX).

Overall, at this point in time, I wouldn't recommend relying on GRASS on
a Mac as your GIS solution.

Hmm, you imply that MacOSX is the only operating system that runs on a
Mac. AFAIK, Mandrake 9.1 for PPC includes grass. I am not sure, I don't
have any PPC boxes, I maintain the grass package though, and there are
recent packages for Mandrake cooker ppc in contrib:

ftp://mandrake.redbox.cz/Mandrake-devel/contrib/ppc/grass-5.0.2-1mdk.ppc.rpm

Or if you do, also budget for OpenOSX's
GRASS cd-rom as it does have a limited amount of technical support that
may make the difference in getting everything working quickly. Maybe in
another 6-12 months doing a self-install of GRASS will work better, but
right now it is an uphill struggle.

- --
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6

Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

I do not have the OpenOSX CD yet, though it is on my list if I can't
get it running without it. I am trying to show NASA that there is an
alternative GIS solution to ESRI without the costs, so I am trying
not to spend any money on the demo I want to develop. It seems like
it shouldn't be that big of a deal downloading and installing
everything myself and for most things it hasn't been. The problem I
am currently stuck on is getting GRASS to talk correctly to the
database.

You mention the LOCATION and MAPSET, which happens to be the specific
hurdle I am currently trying to get over. GRASS is installed as is
MySQL as my database, but I can't get GRASS to acknowledge a LOCATION
and MAPSET within the MySQL folders.

The GRASS "database" is just a directory, not an SQL database.

To check whether GRASS is installed correctly, install one of the
sample datasets (e.g. spearfish) in a directory of your choice. That
directory (the one which contains the spearfish etc subdirectory)
should be entered into the "database" field in the start-up screen.

--
Glynn Clements <glynn.clements@virgin.net>

7

At 19:06 +0200 9/2/03, Buchan Milne wrote:

The Mac, or OSX (we need to know what your requirement is, you seem to
equate Mac with OSX).

I think that all but a tiny fraction of users would also equate "Mac" today with OS X. Only a negligible percentage of potential Mac/Grass users would have the realistic means and time to switch to PPC Linux.

H

8

Thanks for all the replies. :wink: It sounds to me like I should have been on this list months ago when I first started running into problems instead of trying to - stubbornly - figure it out myself. :wink:

I had not realized that GRASS does not need a database, so obviously my next step is to get GRASS running by itself and then potentially add the MySQL database support later on. Everything I had read gave the impression that you needed to have some form of database for GRASS to run properly, the recommended one being Postgresql. That's a little nugget of information that should be propogated better. :wink:

Thanks again. I will try GRASS by itself and see what happens.

Bill

Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

I do not have the OpenOSX CD yet, though it is on my list if I can't
get it running without it. I am trying to show NASA that there is an
alternative GIS solution to ESRI without the costs, so I am trying
not to spend any money on the demo I want to develop. It seems like
it shouldn't be that big of a deal downloading and installing
everything myself and for most things it hasn't been. The problem I
am currently stuck on is getting GRASS to talk correctly to the
database.

You mention the LOCATION and MAPSET, which happens to be the specific
hurdle I am currently trying to get over. GRASS is installed as is
MySQL as my database, but I can't get GRASS to acknowledge a LOCATION
and MAPSET within the MySQL folders.

The GRASS "database" is just a directory, not an SQL database.

To check whether GRASS is installed correctly, install one of the
sample datasets (e.g. spearfish) in a directory of your choice. That
directory (the one which contains the spearfish etc subdirectory)
should be entered into the "database" field in the start-up screen.

--
Glynn Clements <glynn.clements@virgin.net>

--

Bill Dickinson
GIS Specialist
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Environmental & Safety Branch, Code 250
wdickins@pop700.gsfc.nasa.gov

9

Hello

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

Thanks for all the replies. :wink: It sounds to me like I should have
been on this list months ago when I first started running into
problems instead of trying to - stubbornly - figure it out myself. :wink:

You can read and search the archives on the web:
http://op.gfz-potsdam.de/GRASS-List/
http://grass.itc.it/pipermail/grassuser/index.html
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.grass.user
(there are several possible sources for this). Almost all the problems
have been discussed before. GRASS developers mailing list at
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.grass.devel
http://grass.itc.it/pipermail/grass5/index.html
also contains much useful information

I had not realized that GRASS does not need a database, so obviously
my next step is to get GRASS running by itself and then potentially
add the MySQL database support later on. Everything I had read gave
the impression that you needed to have some form of database for
GRASS to run properly, the recommended one being Postgresql. That's a
little nugget of information that should be propogated better. :wink:

I tried to make two small changes to the web pages to make it clearer and
mention that external databases are only needed to support manipulation of
vector data with multiple attributes (I hope I got that right).
(See http://grass.itc.it/pipermail/weblist/2003-September/001223.html )
But everywhere I saw it clearly mentions that PostgreSQL / ODBC support is
optional.

I have been using GRASS for a year and a half without needing the database
access stuff at all. I am also using a platform (outdated IRIX system)
where installation of that kind of stuff is not easy. However GRASS 5.1
(to be 5.7.x) uses an internal dbf file driver by default so you don't
need a DBMS installed to do simple multiple attribute query work with it.

Paul Kelly

10

Sounds like we have the same basic set up, John. :wink:

I also have ArcView running on a Wintel box, though I have Spatial Analyst as well as the basic 8.x AV. I could use 3D Analyst as well as the Image Processing extensions, but don't currently have $5k to throw around for it. I also find that a lot of things that ESRI states are straightforward to accomplish simply aren't, so I would like to have an alternative GIS application to make up for AV's shortcomings.

My biggest problem with AV has been data conversions. I have ArcView 8.x, which does not have all of the conversion options as under either ArcEditor or ArcInfo. If you want access to all of ESRI's data tools you need ArcInfo, which, of course, also costs the most - $6500 under government pricing. ArcView only cost us $2500, though now we are seeing the downside of this version of ArcGIS.

Anyway, time to get cracking at making GRASS run on my OS X box today. :wink:

Bill

I'm no guru, but I have GRASS running on OSX. You definitely need the OPEN SOURCE GIS (Neteler and Mitasova) book .

I would not mess with postgresql until you have a basic version running,.

GRASS isn't really a substitute for ArcView. Its GUI is crude and buggy, and for looking at maps you need a GUI. The database (postgres) capability are also crude compared to straightforward AV "map query" dialog.
That said, GRASS competes well against. AV Spatial Analyst, which is very pricey (list 2500) and buggy. For instance, i used the GRASS v.prune command to rescue a AV shape file which caused a crash in AV. Actual coordinate information is more accessible in Grass than AV. The 3D capabiltity of nviz is easier to use than the AV 3.x geospatial extension, which is another $2500. I have ArcMap 8.0 as well as AV 3.3, but cannot afford the Spatial extensions for the new versions. I use ArcMap for export and other needs.

I tried to work exclusively in GRASS, but if I valued my time, the cost of AV and a cheap Wintel box to run was far less. I now network a computer running AV with my OSX box. I transfer shape files back and forth, using GRASS for processes like interpolation which are problematic using ArcView.

i installed 1) web binaries from the Grass site ( these have a shared library problem which disables NVIZ and other modules)
2) the Open OSX CD-- works fine, but they didn't compile the module s.cellstats which I really need.

I used up a lot of time re-editing the make file instructions to try and get s.cellstates to run. no luck. These files are written with the directory paths used by the OpenOSX compile, which are different on my installation. Also different versions of system libraries and compilers.

Compile problems make up most of the traffic on the Grass list. Its really too bad that the developers haven't got a straightforward installation process set up.

-john chesnut

--

Bill Dickinson
GIS Specialist
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Environmental & Safety Branch, Code 250
wdickins@pop700.gsfc.nasa.gov

11

Bill,

Could you elaborate? I know what my perceived "downsides" to ArcGIS are, but I'm curious what other perceptions are as well. I'm not sure GRASSLIST is the place to have this discussion, except that Grass has similar downsides. For example, my perception of one major drawback of ArcGIS 8.x from the former architecture is that extending functionality of any ESRI tool now can only be accomplished by an accomplished Windows-based OO software engineer. Very few natural resource managers are also accomplished Windows-based (.NET) OO software engineers. Very few OO software engineers are also accomplished managers of natural resources. It is doubtful that colleges of natural resource management will now require 20 credit hours of accompanying object oriented analysis and design just so their graduates can extend ArcInfo. AML on the other hand, for all its absurdities, could at least be comprehended in a couple/few class assignments.

It's my perception that ArcObjects and the 8.x architecture was designed not with respect to Natural Resource managers and scientists, the foundation of ESRI users, but with respect to engineers that manage utility systems. Hence 8.x's similarities to the SmallWorld object model architecture. Even the object relational model concept behind creating geodatabases really only benefits utilities who need to manage n-ary relationships between linear features, yet adds so much complexity.

The lesson here for Grass is perhaps to never lose focus of who the end user is and what they are trying to accomplish. If Grass lacks anything at this point it is easy installation and configuration. The open source model, leveraging other open source libraries and initiatives, doesn't always lend itself to easy compilation, (i.e., do I build GDAL first with libgrass or Grass first and use its libraries to compile GDAL?). What I feel needs to happen (in addition to quicker releases), is a Grass installation/compilation project as a wrapper that facilitates building Grass successfully and all its constituent dependencies, (i.e., libgeotiff, libtiff, gdal, xerces, proj4, etc.) much the way the Debian or even Mandrake package managers do, but perhaps not tied to specific OS's and/or distributions.

In closing, apologies in advance for the digression. I am extremely indebted to all the current and former members of the Grass development team so I hope no offense is taken to any of these comments and only wish I could contribute more.

Jack Varga

Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

... though now we are seeing the downside of this version of ArcGIS.

12

My biggest problem with AV has been data conversions. I have ArcView 8.x, which does not have all of the conversion options as under either ArcEditor or ArcInfo. If you want access to all of ESRI's data tools you need ArcInfo, which, of course, also costs the most - $6500 under government pricing. ArcView only cost us $2500, though now we are seeing the downside of this version of ArcGIS.

I've said this before and I hope I don't sound like a broken record, but Safe Software's data conversion tool FME is essential for me. It handles every vector format you're likely to come across. Free trial at http://www.safe.com/. The Windoze version is priced on a par with ArcView.
--
----
Hal Mueller hal@mobilegeographics.com
Mobile Geographics LLC http://www.mobilegeographics.com/
Seattle, Washington
Get MapTap for PalmOS: http://www.mobilegeographics.com/maptap/

13

Everyone will be happy to know that I changed my GRASS installation to not use the database and it now runs fine. :wink: I'm now going to try to run through the SEEDS tutorial, though I have already run into a problem where it appears the tar file with the data is corrupted as there aren't any raster files in it (see the other thread I started on the SEEDS tutorial).

So, the lesson here is that something is up with the database functions within GRASS, or at least that is what I assume with my limited Unix knowledge. I am quite willing to believe it has more to do with my lack of experience with Unix databases then with GRASS itself unless other people have had similar problems.

Boy, if I had just sent my initial email two months ago I would have saved myself a lot of aggravation. Thanks for the help. :wink:

Bill

--

Bill Dickinson
GIS Specialist
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Environmental & Safety Branch, Code 250
wdickins@pop700.gsfc.nasa.gov

14

On Tue, Sep 02, 2003 at 10:23:47AM -0400, Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

Hey there:

I have been running in circles for about 2 months now trying to get
GRASS installed on my OS X box and have yet to get it successfully
running. If there is someone out there who has successfully installed
and is currently running GRASS on their Mac, and would have the time
to talk me through yet another installation attempt, I would
appreciate the assist. My "friends" keep telling me to stop beating
my head against the OS X wall and simply use a Linux box, but being a
Mac-fanatic I would really like to have it working on my Mac. :wink:

Just for amusement you could try the GRASS 5.1 Mac OSX binaries
which I have built recently:

http://mpa.itc.it/markus/grass51/macosx/

Due to the use of shared libraries the size is less than 8 MB.
Included are 200 commands.

Cheers

Markus Neteler

--
Markus Neteler <neteler@itc.it> http://mpa.itc.it
ITC-irst, Istituto per la Ricerca Scientifica e Tecnologica
MPBA - Predictive Models for Biol. & Environ. Data Analysis
Via Sommarive, 18 - 38050 Povo (Trento), Italy

15

On Tue, Sep 02, 2003 at 10:23:47AM -0400, Bill Dickinson Jr wrote:

Hey there:

>

I have been running in circles for about 2 months now trying to get
GRASS installed on my OS X box and have yet to get it successfully

> running.

I have been using the Grass 5.0.2 CD from <www.OpenOSX.com> and it has been installed on my TiPB running 10.2.6. It seems to run fairly well. I'm using Apples X11 distribution (beta software, but available from their developer site) instead of the included Orobor (sp?). You really should have the BSD subsystem (optional install when installing OSX) installed. I find "wish" very hard to use and as a long time Mac user, I've found that my very rusty unix skills are necessary (20 to 30% of what I've done so far is from the command line). The biggest problem (beside gui crashes) is to remember that even though one opens grass from a particular location and mapset, that is not necessarily were you area. Thanks to whomever reminded me of this during my recent struggles w/v.in.sdts.! If you get the CD from openosx, don't bother getting the 6 months support as grass doesn't seem to change that quickly.
--
David Fernald
Tern Wireless LLC