[GRASSLIST:9247] GRASS and ArcSDE

GRASS GRASS user
1

Our university is rapidly moving all GIS data onto ArcSDE. Is there a
method for getting these data onto a Unix machine?

ESRI has penetrated so deep here that GIS==ESRI in most people's
minds. When our map librarians insisted that the data distribution
model be updated (understandably) to better serve the community (40k+
students). There wasn't even token consideration given to technologies
other then SDE. Maybe there isn't an alternative that works as well?

If I can't find a method to interact with SDE, I'm going to lose
access to the major datasets. Any suggestions (other than buying a
windows work station)?

David
--
David Finlayson
Marine Geology & Geophysics
School of Oceanography
Box 357940
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195-7940
USA

Office: Marine Sciences Building, Room 112
Phone: (206) 616-9407
Web: http://students.washington.edu/dfinlays

2

David,

  Frank W. has recently added vector SDE support to OGR :
http://lists.maptools.org/pipermail/gdal-dev/2005-November/007242.html.

So theoretically you can use v.in.ogr for the vectors but I have no
idea how mature this is yet. SDE rasters are not supported at all
AFAIK.

matt

On 11/29/05, David Finlayson <david.p.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:

Our university is rapidly moving all GIS data onto ArcSDE. Is there a
method for getting these data onto a Unix machine?

ESRI has penetrated so deep here that GIS==ESRI in most people's
minds. When our map librarians insisted that the data distribution
model be updated (understandably) to better serve the community (40k+
students). There wasn't even token consideration given to technologies
other then SDE. Maybe there isn't an alternative that works as well?

If I can't find a method to interact with SDE, I'm going to lose
access to the major datasets. Any suggestions (other than buying a
windows work station)?

David
--
David Finlayson
Marine Geology & Geophysics
School of Oceanography
Box 357940
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195-7940
USA

Office: Marine Sciences Building, Room 112
Phone: (206) 616-9407
Web: http://students.washington.edu/dfinlays

--
Matt Perry
perrygeo@gmail.com
http://www.perrygeo.net

3

I’m a little confused. ArcSDE is middleware between some given application interacting with the user and the data, usually a database, is it not?

what format is the data in currently? Geodatabases? coverages? shapefiles?

what do you mean by “is there a method to getting these data onto a UNIX machine”?

its sad… GIS==ERSI not only in your institution, but in the community in general, specifically in the USA. much like PC==MICROSOFT.

I seem to recall Mapserver being able to interact with ArcSDE. i dont know if you are looking for internet deployment or desktop applications.

take care

On 11/29/05, David Finlayson <david.p.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:

Our university is rapidly moving all GIS data onto ArcSDE. Is there a
method for getting these data onto a Unix machine?

ESRI has penetrated so deep here that GIS==ESRI in most people’s
minds. When our map librarians insisted that the data distribution
model be updated (understandably) to better serve the community (40k+
students). There wasn’t even token consideration given to technologies
other then SDE. Maybe there isn’t an alternative that works as well?

If I can’t find a method to interact with SDE, I’m going to lose
access to the major datasets. Any suggestions (other than buying a
windows work station)?

David

David Finlayson
Marine Geology & Geophysics
School of Oceanography
Box 357940
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195-7940
USA

Office: Marine Sciences Building, Room 112
Phone: (206) 616-9407
Web: http://students.washington.edu/dfinlays

4

On 11/29/05, M S <mseibel@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm a little confused. ArcSDE is middleware between some given application
interacting with the user and the data, usually a database, is it not?

Is there any client other than ArcGIS that can interact directly with
SDE? On either end? If not, SDE is only middleware in the ESRI stack
and useless for alternative software products.

It sounds like there may be a geodatabase reader in gdal soon, that's
good news. But, what about rasters? To be fare, this is really a
killer feature of SDE. It can hold terabytes of raster data seamlessly
and efficiently. I was really impressed when I saw how fast it works
on a remote ArcGIS client. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be
any way to take advantage of this infrastructure from GRASS.

This doesn't bode well when the University's major data archives start
migrating to SDE.

its sad... GIS==ERSI not only in your institution, but in the community in
general, specifically in the USA. much like PC==MICROSOFT.

Indeed.

5

Hi,

ArcSDE only for clients look fast, on server side load is high :wink:
As I understand, ArcSDE is like PostGIS. It can have multiple backends
(Oracle etc.), but MySQL/PostgreSQL are not supported.

As ArcSDE follows OGC standarts, there should be no problem to connect
with any app to it. I cant test it, as I have only raster data in my
SDE.

More info:
"To date, ESRI has implemented the OGC Simple Feature Access
Specification (in ArcSDE and ArcGIS)"
http://www.esri.com/software/standards/faqs.html

Fighting with monopoly isnt easy task. Some days a go I had discussion
about new study programm for planing experts. Authors of this program
where saying - its good what you can do with GRASS (pointing on my
work), but we will by and teach only ArcGIS. My reply, that we need
to teach GIS and not usage of some app, was w/o any replys. Huh. They
will have no money to by ArcGIS extensions, so brand new planing and
GIS experts will have only basic knowledge how to use ArcView.

Maris.

2005/11/30, David Finlayson <david.p.finlayson@gmail.com>:

On 11/29/05, M S <mseibel@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a little confused. ArcSDE is middleware between some given application
> interacting with the user and the data, usually a database, is it not?
>

Is there any client other than ArcGIS that can interact directly with
SDE? On either end? If not, SDE is only middleware in the ESRI stack
and useless for alternative software products.

It sounds like there may be a geodatabase reader in gdal soon, that's
good news. But, what about rasters? To be fare, this is really a
killer feature of SDE. It can hold terabytes of raster data seamlessly
and efficiently. I was really impressed when I saw how fast it works
on a remote ArcGIS client. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be
any way to take advantage of this infrastructure from GRASS.

This doesn't bode well when the University's major data archives start
migrating to SDE.

> its sad... GIS==ERSI not only in your institution, but in the community in
> general, specifically in the USA. much like PC==MICROSOFT.
>

Indeed.

6

On 11/30/05, David Finlayson <dfinlays@u.washington.edu> wrote:

On 11/30/05, Mâris Nartiðs <maris.nartiss@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

ArcSDE only for clients look fast, on server side load is high :wink:
As I understand, ArcSDE is like PostGIS. It can have multiple backends
(Oracle etc.), but MySQL/PostgreSQL are not supported.

As ArcSDE follows OGC standarts, there should be no problem to connect
with any app to it. I cant test it, as I have only raster data in my
SDE.

Unfortunately, raster data is what I use primarily and it doesn't look
like that is supported by any ISO standard yet (hence no FOSS
implementation is available).

It sounds like it might be possible to get access to the vector data.
However. The standards page you linked to is an alphabet soup of
protocols and implementation specifications.

This aspect of GIS is starting to get so complicated we need a
specialist just to implement the back-end. One department I work with
hired a full time Oracle tech $$$ for 2 years to get their GIS
infrastructure up and running. This is crazy overhead for a scientist
like me.

Fighting with monopoly isnt easy task. Some days a go I had discussion
about new study programm for planing experts. Authors of this program
where saying - its good what you can do with GRASS (pointing on my
work), but we will by and teach only ArcGIS. My reply, that we need
to teach GIS and not usage of some app, was w/o any replys. Huh. They
will have no money to by ArcGIS extensions, so brand new planing and
GIS experts will have only basic knowledge how to use ArcView.

I am going to a meeting this afternoon where I expect the same blank
stares. I am developing a course on hydrologic and chemical modelling
that is supposed to be cross platform. One of the chemical modelers
used a "visual" modeling environment for windows at the request of our
director. He now wants to set this environment up in our computer
labs. I told him that the license to use the "visual" modeling
environment is $1500 per chair and there is no way it will run on Macs
or Unix. He was shocked. Hadn't even thought about that.

Now I get an email from him saying that he has talked to his
programmer and they have decided to port the code to C#. This code
needs to run (literally) thousands of iterations per time step. It
needs to run on Unix (where the hydro models are located) and it needs
to be fairly inexpensive for colleagues out of the country who don't
have our resources. And he picks C#...<bangs head on table>

--
David Finlayson
Marine Geology & Geophysics
School of Oceanography
Box 357940
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195-7940
USA

Office: Marine Sciences Building, Room 112
Phone: (206) 616-9407
Web: http://students.washington.edu/dfinlays

7

David and others,

Frank W. on the GDAL list has recently announced support for SDE in OGR!!

It looks like real-world SDE support will be possible in GRASS via OGR. Not to
sure how the raster support via GDAL is yet. Might be a good idea to lurk on
the GDAL lists for a while...

Cheers,

Dylan

On Wednesday 30 November 2005 10:51 am, David Finlayson wrote:

On 11/30/05, David Finlayson <dfinlays@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On 11/30/05, Mâris Nartiðs <maris.nartiss@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> ArcSDE only for clients look fast, on server side load is high :wink:
> As I understand, ArcSDE is like PostGIS. It can have multiple backends
> (Oracle etc.), but MySQL/PostgreSQL are not supported.
>
> As ArcSDE follows OGC standarts, there should be no problem to connect
> with any app to it. I cant test it, as I have only raster data in my
> SDE.

Unfortunately, raster data is what I use primarily and it doesn't look
like that is supported by any ISO standard yet (hence no FOSS
implementation is available).

It sounds like it might be possible to get access to the vector data.
However. The standards page you linked to is an alphabet soup of
protocols and implementation specifications.

This aspect of GIS is starting to get so complicated we need a
specialist just to implement the back-end. One department I work with
hired a full time Oracle tech $$$ for 2 years to get their GIS
infrastructure up and running. This is crazy overhead for a scientist
like me.

> Fighting with monopoly isnt easy task. Some days a go I had discussion
> about new study programm for planing experts. Authors of this program
> where saying - its good what you can do with GRASS (pointing on my
> work), but we will by and teach only ArcGIS. My reply, that we need
> to teach GIS and not usage of some app, was w/o any replys. Huh. They
> will have no money to by ArcGIS extensions, so brand new planing and
> GIS experts will have only basic knowledge how to use ArcView.

I am going to a meeting this afternoon where I expect the same blank
stares. I am developing a course on hydrologic and chemical modelling
that is supposed to be cross platform. One of the chemical modelers
used a "visual" modeling environment for windows at the request of our
director. He now wants to set this environment up in our computer
labs. I told him that the license to use the "visual" modeling
environment is $1500 per chair and there is no way it will run on Macs
or Unix. He was shocked. Hadn't even thought about that.

Now I get an email from him saying that he has talked to his
programmer and they have decided to port the code to C#. This code
needs to run (literally) thousands of iterations per time step. It
needs to run on Unix (where the hydro models are located) and it needs
to be fairly inexpensive for colleagues out of the country who don't
have our resources. And he picks C#...<bangs head on table>

--
David Finlayson
Marine Geology & Geophysics
School of Oceanography
Box 357940
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195-7940
USA

Office: Marine Sciences Building, Room 112
Phone: (206) 616-9407
Web: http://students.washington.edu/dfinlays

--
Dylan Beaudette
Soils and Biogeochemistry Graduate Group
University of California at Davis
530.754.7341

8

Wow. That sounds really encouraging. I'll track down the message.

David

On 12/5/05, Dylan Beaudette <dylan.beaudette@gmail.com> wrote:

David and others,

Frank W. on the GDAL list has recently announced support for SDE in OGR!!

It looks like real-world SDE support will be possible in GRASS via OGR. Not to
sure how the raster support via GDAL is yet. Might be a good idea to lurk on
the GDAL lists for a while...

Cheers,

Dylan

On Wednesday 30 November 2005 10:51 am, David Finlayson wrote:
> On 11/30/05, David Finlayson <dfinlays@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > On 11/30/05, Mâris Nartiðs <maris.nartiss@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > ArcSDE only for clients look fast, on server side load is high :wink:
> > As I understand, ArcSDE is like PostGIS. It can have multiple backends
> > (Oracle etc.), but MySQL/PostgreSQL are not supported.
> >
> > As ArcSDE follows OGC standarts, there should be no problem to connect
> > with any app to it. I cant test it, as I have only raster data in my
> > SDE.
>
> Unfortunately, raster data is what I use primarily and it doesn't look
> like that is supported by any ISO standard yet (hence no FOSS
> implementation is available).
>
> It sounds like it might be possible to get access to the vector data.
> However. The standards page you linked to is an alphabet soup of
> protocols and implementation specifications.
>
> This aspect of GIS is starting to get so complicated we need a
> specialist just to implement the back-end. One department I work with
> hired a full time Oracle tech $$$ for 2 years to get their GIS
> infrastructure up and running. This is crazy overhead for a scientist
> like me.
>
> > Fighting with monopoly isnt easy task. Some days a go I had discussion
> > about new study programm for planing experts. Authors of this program
> > where saying - its good what you can do with GRASS (pointing on my
> > work), but we will by and teach only ArcGIS. My reply, that we need
> > to teach GIS and not usage of some app, was w/o any replys. Huh. They
> > will have no money to by ArcGIS extensions, so brand new planing and
> > GIS experts will have only basic knowledge how to use ArcView.
>
> I am going to a meeting this afternoon where I expect the same blank
> stares. I am developing a course on hydrologic and chemical modelling
> that is supposed to be cross platform. One of the chemical modelers
> used a "visual" modeling environment for windows at the request of our
> director. He now wants to set this environment up in our computer
> labs. I told him that the license to use the "visual" modeling
> environment is $1500 per chair and there is no way it will run on Macs
> or Unix. He was shocked. Hadn't even thought about that.
>
> Now I get an email from him saying that he has talked to his
> programmer and they have decided to port the code to C#. This code
> needs to run (literally) thousands of iterations per time step. It
> needs to run on Unix (where the hydro models are located) and it needs
> to be fairly inexpensive for colleagues out of the country who don't
> have our resources. And he picks C#...<bangs head on table>
>
> --
> David Finlayson
> Marine Geology & Geophysics
> School of Oceanography
> Box 357940
> University of Washington
> Seattle, WA 98195-7940
> USA
>
> Office: Marine Sciences Building, Room 112
> Phone: (206) 616-9407
> Web: http://students.washington.edu/dfinlays

--
Dylan Beaudette
Soils and Biogeochemistry Graduate Group
University of California at Davis
530.754.7341

--
David Finlayson
Marine Geology & Geophysics
School of Oceanography
Box 357940
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195-7940
USA

Office: Marine Sciences Building, Room 112
Phone: (206) 616-9407
Web: http://students.washington.edu/dfinlays

9

That is huge. the open source solutions and devlopers never cease to amaze me!

Accessing SDE data in GRASS via OGR would be astounding.

On 12/5/05, Dylan Beaudette <dylan.beaudette@gmail.com > wrote:

David and others,

Frank W. on the GDAL list has recently announced support for SDE in OGR!!

It looks like real-world SDE support will be possible in GRASS via OGR. Not to
sure how the raster support via GDAL is yet. Might be a good idea to lurk on
the GDAL lists for a while…

Cheers,

Dylan

On Wednesday 30 November 2005 10:51 am, David Finlayson wrote:

On 11/30/05, David Finlayson <dfinlays@u.washington.edu> wrote:

On 11/30/05, Māris Nartišs < maris.nartiss@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

ArcSDE only for clients look fast, on server side load is high :wink:
As I understand, ArcSDE is like PostGIS. It can have multiple backends
(Oracle etc.), but MySQL/PostgreSQL are not supported.

As ArcSDE follows OGC standarts, there should be no problem to connect
with any app to it. I cant test it, as I have only raster data in my
SDE.

Unfortunately, raster data is what I use primarily and it doesn’t look
like that is supported by any ISO standard yet (hence no FOSS
implementation is available).

It sounds like it might be possible to get access to the vector data.
However. The standards page you linked to is an alphabet soup of
protocols and implementation specifications.

This aspect of GIS is starting to get so complicated we need a
specialist just to implement the back-end. One department I work with
hired a full time Oracle tech $$$ for 2 years to get their GIS
infrastructure up and running. This is crazy overhead for a scientist
like me.

Fighting with monopoly isnt easy task. Some days a go I had discussion
about new study programm for planing experts. Authors of this program
where saying - its good what you can do with GRASS (pointing on my
work), but we will by and teach only ArcGIS. My reply, that we need
to teach GIS and not usage of some app, was w/o any replys. Huh. They
will have no money to by ArcGIS extensions, so brand new planing and
GIS experts will have only basic knowledge how to use ArcView.

I am going to a meeting this afternoon where I expect the same blank
stares. I am developing a course on hydrologic and chemical modelling
that is supposed to be cross platform. One of the chemical modelers
used a “visual” modeling environment for windows at the request of our
director. He now wants to set this environment up in our computer
labs. I told him that the license to use the “visual” modeling
environment is $1500 per chair and there is no way it will run on Macs
or Unix. He was shocked. Hadn’t even thought about that.

Now I get an email from him saying that he has talked to his
programmer and they have decided to port the code to C#. This code
needs to run (literally) thousands of iterations per time step. It
needs to run on Unix (where the hydro models are located) and it needs
to be fairly inexpensive for colleagues out of the country who don’t
have our resources. And he picks C#…

–
David Finlayson
Marine Geology & Geophysics
School of Oceanography
Box 357940
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195-7940
USA

Office: Marine Sciences Building, Room 112
Phone: (206) 616-9407
Web: http://students.washington.edu/dfinlays

–
Dylan Beaudette
Soils and Biogeochemistry Graduate Group
University of California at Davis
530.754.7341