RE: [GRASS-dev] Re: [GRASS-CVS] michael: grass6/lib/initgis_set.t cl, 1.24, 1.25

GRASS GIS GRASS GIS developer
1

I like Michael's suggestion to insert a small blurb under each term to help
new users:

Select GIS database
(directory containing GRASS data)

Select location
(projection and optional geographic extents)

Select mapset
(GIS files)

This way, we keep the traditional terms that appear in the Grass literature,
and the meanings are much more defined.

~ Eric.

-----Original Message-----
From: Hamish
To: Maciej Sieczka
Cc: Patton, Eric; grass-dev@grass.itc.it
Sent: 7/19/2006 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: [GRASS-dev] Re: [GRASS-CVS] michael: grass6/lib/initgis_set.t
cl, 1.24, 1.25

Maciej Sieczka wrote:

I would like to comment a little on this. "Location" seems a very sane
term to me, I wouldn't like to see it replaced. Maybe it is different
for English native speakers, but for my Polish fellow Grass users
learning what a location is, and using that term, was never a problem.
Also, "Project" could lead to confusing "reproject data from one
project to another" instead of "reproject data from one location to
another".

database has several meainings, location has several meanings, project
has several meanings.. layer has several meanings.. region has several
meanings.. yikes.

database and layer are the nasty ones as they have multiple meanings
within the software.

Hamish

2

On Wed, 2006-07-19 at 09:55 -0300, Patton, Eric wrote:

I like Michael's suggestion to insert a small blurb under each term to help
new users:

Select GIS database
(directory containing GRASS data)

Select location
(projection and optional geographic extents)

Select mapset
(GIS files)

This way, we keep the traditional terms that appear in the Grass literature,
and the meanings are much more defined.

+1

M

3

> I like Michael's suggestion to insert a small blurb under each term
> to help new users:
>
> Select GIS database
> (directory containing GRASS data)
>
> Select location
> (projection and optional geographic extents)
>
> Select mapset
> (GIS files)
>
> This way, we keep the traditional terms that appear in the Grass
> literature, and the meanings are much more defined.

or as tooltips, to keep the page clean.

Hamish

4

Just to make sure that this discussion does not die out without
a solution, I read once more through the discussion and to summarize,
it looks like there is some agreement that the text on the startup
pannel should be as follows (more comments are welcome - this is still evolving):

1. No problems with the welcome message
(Hamish complained about grammar, but nobody else so I guess it is OK):
"Welcome to GRASS GIS version $GRASSVERSION"
"The world's leading open source GIS"

2. For location, mapset, it looks like the latest change by Markus is acceptable
to most, so the text would be:

"Select an existing project location and mapset
or define a new project location"

Project Location
Accessible Mapsets
Create new mapset in selected location
Define new project location by

with brief explanation for each selection
- pop-up help at mouse-over or tooltips were suggested,
or the less favored text added in parenthesis (that may crowd the
startup pannel too much)
Just a note1: Lorenzo's GRASS has a very nice example of info button for each selection
on the Mac GRASS Start pannel that slides out on the side with very detailed
description for each option. I found it very intuitive and useful.

and my note2: project location interpreted as a location on hard drive
and as geospatial location are both valid interpretations and
I don't see a problem here

3. The text for "path to GRASS database" is somewhat open due to the term
database interpreted as DB for attributes - the following has been suggested:

Select GIS database (directory containing GRASS data)
Workspace
Projects directory
Path to location
Data path

Any suggestion on which one should be implemented? Or any better idea?

4. The language in the startup pannel is the easy part,
as others have mentioned most new users get really
stuck when a new location needs to be created

Define new project location by:

I will send my thoughts on this in next email with new, better suited subject,

Helena

On Jul 19, 2006, at 11:11 PM, Hamish wrote:

I like Michael's suggestion to insert a small blurb under each term
to help new users:

Select GIS database
(directory containing GRASS data)

Select location
(projection and optional geographic extents)

Select mapset
(GIS files)

This way, we keep the traditional terms that appear in the Grass
literature, and the meanings are much more defined.

or as tooltips, to keep the page clean.

Hamish

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grass-dev mailing list
grass-dev@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev

5

Thanks Helena,

I'm taking a bit of a break after the georectifier and a bunch of minor bug
fixes, but will work on this soon. I like Hamish's thoughts too. A couple of
technical issues...

Slide out drawers (as in Lorenzo's start screen) are not obviously doable in
TclTk.

Mouseover help text is available for labels.

However, I'd like to get a brief explanation/definition of these critically
important GRASS terms to the users very directly. So, I'd like to try to fit
the text in in parentheses. However, I can't make the entry screen any
larger, to keep it fitting within low-resolution screens and data
projectors. And we don't want TOO much text on the entry screen. Maybe a
combination of short definition and more help with mouseover text. I'll play
with it and see what I can come up with, then let you all see what you
think.

Michael
__________________________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

phone: 480-965-6213
fax: 480-965-7671
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton

From: Helena Mitasova <hmitaso@unity.ncsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 23:52:52 -0400
To: Hamish <hamish_nospam@yahoo.com>
Cc: <grass-dev@grass.itc.it>
Subject: Re: [GRASS-dev] michael: grass6/lib/initgis_set.t cl, 1.24, 1.25

Just to make sure that this discussion does not die out without
a solution, I read once more through the discussion and to summarize,
it looks like there is some agreement that the text on the startup
pannel should be as follows (more comments are welcome - this is
still evolving):

1. No problems with the welcome message
(Hamish complained about grammar, but nobody else so I guess it is OK):
"Welcome to GRASS GIS version $GRASSVERSION"
"The world's leading open source GIS"

2. For location, mapset, it looks like the latest change by Markus is
acceptable
to most, so the text would be:

"Select an existing project location and mapset
or define a new project location"

Project Location
Accessible Mapsets
Create new mapset in selected location
Define new project location by

with brief explanation for each selection
- pop-up help at mouse-over or tooltips were suggested,
or the less favored text added in parenthesis (that may crowd the
startup pannel too much)
Just a note1: Lorenzo's GRASS has a very nice example of info button
for each selection
on the Mac GRASS Start pannel that slides out on the side with very
detailed
description for each option. I found it very intuitive and useful.

and my note2: project location interpreted as a location on hard drive
and as geospatial location are both valid interpretations and
I don't see a problem here

3. The text for "path to GRASS database" is somewhat open due to the
term
database interpreted as DB for attributes - the following has been
suggested:

Select GIS database (directory containing GRASS data)
Workspace
Projects directory
Path to location
Data path

Any suggestion on which one should be implemented? Or any better idea?

4. The language in the startup pannel is the easy part,
as others have mentioned most new users get really
stuck when a new location needs to be created

Define new project location by:

I will send my thoughts on this in next email with new, better suited
subject,

Helena

On Jul 19, 2006, at 11:11 PM, Hamish wrote:

I like Michael's suggestion to insert a small blurb under each term
to help new users:

Select GIS database
(directory containing GRASS data)

Select location
(projection and optional geographic extents)

Select mapset
(GIS files)

This way, we keep the traditional terms that appear in the Grass
literature, and the meanings are much more defined.

or as tooltips, to keep the page clean.

Hamish

_______________________________________________
grass-dev mailing list
grass-dev@grass.itc.it
http://grass.itc.it/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev

6

3. The text for "path to GRASS database" is somewhat open due to the term
database interpreted as DB for attributes - the following has been
suggested:

Select GIS database (directory containing GRASS data)

I'd vote for this one.

Maciek

7

Helena wrote:

1. No problems with the welcome message
(Hamish complained about grammar, but nobody else so I guess it is
OK): [...]
"The world's leading open source GIS"

Perhaps poor sentence structure as opposed to poor "grammar".
("foremost" would be more correct, but sounds ~~~)

Radio Free GIS

--- discussion on how to improve starting GRASS with new
location------- I looks like this may not be as difficult as percieved
if we take into account what the user has before he starts to work
with GRASS:

[a pull-down menu would be nice here]

User who wants to start grass may have:
1. georeferenced file with prj info

we already have a button on the startup GUI for this one,

2. georeferenced file but no prj - should we try to guess the coord.
system - lat/long would be easy, UTM maybe?, state plane would be a
lot of work, I don't know about the rest of the world. I don't
think that you can guess a datum?

Please, no. We shouldn't even infer lat/lon from data range. If in
doubt, default to XY.

3. non-georeferenced file

simple XY location

4. nothing - can this happen?

often we start with no data, but know the proj info or EPSG code.
First data arrives with e.g. i.rectify or m.proj.

2. "Use EPSG values" would stay second choice but we can make it
more user friendly:

..

- is it possible to make EPSG list searchable?

hear hear. "/" search or simple "find text" dialog please..
currently the browse EPSG file is pretty useless as it is so long.

Hamish

8

On Jul 23, 2006, at 4:52 AM, Hamish wrote:

--- discussion on how to improve starting GRASS with new
location------- I looks like this may not be as difficult as percieved
if we take into account what the user has before he starts to work
with GRASS:

[a pull-down menu would be nice here]

User who wants to start grass may have:
1. georeferenced file with prj info

we already have a button on the startup GUI for this one,

if you read the entire email - I am suggesting to make this the first choice
rather than the last one to encourage users to go this way

2. georeferenced file but no prj - should we try to guess the coord.
system - lat/long would be easy, UTM maybe?, state plane would be a
lot of work, I don't know about the rest of the world. I don't
think that you can guess a datum?

Please, no. We shouldn't even infer lat/lon from data range. If in
doubt, default to XY.

this was in response to Michael Tiemann's suggestion, see below
(Michael it cannot be done the way you describe, but I believe that this problem will be eventually
solved when every georeferenced file that general public would use
will have the prj and extent info associated with it - we are not that far from it.
If my optimism has any merit, the implementation of the guessing procedure may
not be worth the effort and most users will go with no.1 that does everything
automatically)

>Michael T writes:
>And/or some script-based help that can provide some guidance, such as
>"this looks like a GIS file associated with the US Census TIGER
>database. If this is correct, your projection is likely $PROJ and your
>extent is likely $EXTENT. Should I use those values?" Or, "this looks
>like a GIS file associated with a Magellan GPS device. If this is
>correct..."

>I believe that there are a few simple use cases--electronic versions of
>USGS maps, GPS reference data, etc--that cover literally millions of
>intelligent, but not sophisticated, users. These users don't
>necessarily need toolbar help in figuring out which band of LANDSAT data
>they want to overlay, but they do want to map demographic or geocache
>data, and it would be HUGE if GRASS made it as easy as possible to be
>successful in those two use cases.

3. non-georeferenced file

simple XY location

should we have separate button for it on the startup pannel?

4. nothing - can this happen?

often we start with no data, but know the proj info or EPSG code.

no data but a prj info would be the same as no. 2, so that would be
"Use pre-defined projection" (or should it be pre-defined coordinate system?)

First data arrives with e.g. i.rectify or m.proj.

2. "Use EPSG values" would stay second choice but we can make it
more user friendly:

..

- is it possible to make EPSG list searchable?

hear hear. "/" search or simple "find text" dialog please..
currently the browse EPSG file is pretty useless as it is so long.

searchable EPSG file would solve a lot of problems - does anybody know
how to implement it?

Helena

Hamish