[GRASS-user] [[OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?]

GRASS GRASS user
1

This question should go to the GRASS user mailinglist.

I'm not a full time GIS analyst, but so far I have not needed anything from ESRI that GRASS and/or other OSGeo projects can't do. Arc is perhaps a bit stronger on the cartography side of things, but with a bit of patience you can produce nice maps with GRASS.

--Wolf

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:41:17 -0600
From: Jennifer Horsman <jen@jencarta.com>
Reply-To: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
To: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
References: <2D44BABC-44BC-4572-9C5A-59DB8F6DC632@osgeo.org> <0D544207876CDA428F17DD7EA448C192BEAEFF@bailey.DOMAIN.KSNINC.PVT>

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--

<:3 )---- Wolf Bergenheim ----( 8:>

2

Where GRASS fails relative to ESRI products is in cartographic map output. Others may differ with my view, but creating high-quality map outputs in GRASS is non-trivial. I have started using Mapserver to create my cartographic maps. Generic Mapping Tools is another option, but one that I have found to be more challenging than using a Mapserver mapfile. Please correct me if I am overlooking something in GRASS.

Regards,
John

On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Wolf Bergenheim wrote:

This question should go to the GRASS user mailinglist.

I'm not a full time GIS analyst, but so far I have not needed anything from ESRI that GRASS and/or other OSGeo projects can't do. Arc is perhaps a bit stronger on the cartography side of things, but with a bit of patience you can produce nice maps with GRASS.

--Wolf

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:41:17 -0600
From: Jennifer Horsman <jen@jencarta.com>
Reply-To: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
To: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
References: <2D44BABC-44BC-4572-9C5A-59DB8F6DC632@osgeo.org> <0D544207876CDA428F17DD7EA448C192BEAEFF@bailey.DOMAIN.KSNINC.PVT>

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--

<:3 )---- Wolf Bergenheim ----( 8:>

_______________________________________________
grass-user mailing list
grass-user@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-user

3

Wolf:

> Arc is perhaps a bit stronger on the cartography side of things, but
> with a bit of patience you can produce nice maps with GRASS.

John wrote:

Where GRASS fails relative to ESRI products is in cartographic map
output. Others may differ with my view, but creating high-quality map
outputs in GRASS is non-trivial.

Yes, you are right, it is non-trivial -- but is possible! :slight_smile: We had hoped
to fund a student to write a wxPython GUI frontend for ps.map as part of
this year's Google Summer of Code, but were only given 3 slots to work
with (and very grateful we are to have those 3). Competition for those
slots was very tight and we had to say no to some very nice proposals.
It's an important component that I hope is ready for GRASS 6.4. For
GRASS 7 we will be less constrained by the old code to improve the
PostScript, PNG, and Cairo drivers for a more integrated hardcopy output
approach.

http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_SoC_Ideas#Cartography
http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-based_GUI_for_GRASS#GUI_for_ps.map

I find that by sitting down with a hand calculator (1"=72pt) and keeping
the ps.map reference guide handy you can get publish-quality results.
Maybe that still takes longer than it should, and the jumping between %
and inches is a bit awkward, but the results make the trouble worth it
IMO. If you have many maps to produce from a single template or in an
automated way, then ps.map is very hard to beat.

I have started using Mapserver to create my cartographic maps.

some ideas here; additional hints are always welcome:
  http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_and_MapServer

Generic Mapping Tools is another option, but one that I have found to
be more challenging than using a Mapserver mapfile.

ditto:
  http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_and_GMT

GMT will be similar to ps.map in that it is based on scripts and text
file configurations. Perhaps it is just my exposure level, but personally
I find ps.map to be less cryptic. (shrug)

Jennifer wrote:

> I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
> own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS
> installed, but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS
> (it has probably changed since then too!)

A nice thing about this stuff is since it didn't cost you anything it
doesn't have to be a one or the other approach- you can evaluate to see
if it suits your needs without risk. Once you are past that stage you can
use the best tool for the job as needed. But with us the toolboxes come
standard, provide similar functionality, and are free. :slight_smile: Meaning you can
put more cash towards salaries.

> Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as
> ArcGIS?

That is hard to answer, they are both huge & complicated bits of
software, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Some tasks will
be more clunky (but generally possible), and other parts of it you won't
know how you lived without.

I'll leave it to others more qualified than myself to answer that more
clearly, but these pages may help:

http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_migration_hints
http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/Tips_for_Arc_users
http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GIS_to_GRASS_command_translation

Hamish

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4

Todd Buchanan compared GRASS and ArcGIS in his master thesis (Geoscience / GIS):

Title: Thesis – Comparison of ArcGIS 9.0 and GRASS 6.0: Case Study and Implementation.
· Detailed costs and benefits of each GIS and included a comparison of acquisition, installation, implementation, and utilization.
· Involved Landsat image classification and analysis of urbanization of Eugene, OR.

You can get the thesis here:
http://www.toddbuchanan.net/thesis_ver.pdf

The thesis used GRASS 6.0 and GRASS became even better since then:-) I would not agree with TB's statement of technical support being virtually non-existent, because you get answers quickly in the mailing lists.

I hope that helps,

Markus Metz

Wolf Bergenheim wrote:

This question should go to the GRASS user mailinglist.

I'm not a full time GIS analyst, but so far I have not needed anything from ESRI that GRASS and/or other OSGeo projects can't do. Arc is perhaps a bit stronger on the cartography side of things, but with a bit of patience you can produce nice maps with GRASS.

--Wolf

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:41:17 -0600
From: Jennifer Horsman <jen@jencarta.com>
Reply-To: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
To: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
References: <2D44BABC-44BC-4572-9C5A-59DB8F6DC632@osgeo.org> <0D544207876CDA428F17DD7EA448C192BEAEFF@bailey.DOMAIN.KSNINC.PVT>

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

5

Thanks for sharing the link to the thesis.

I would like to add that some of the drawbacks of GRASS can be compensated by using GRASS together with QGIS. There are ongoing efforts (mainly by Marco Hugentobler) in QGIS currently to improve the layout and printing tools. I think the integration of both programs looks promising and I hope that in the future the two projects will collaborate and integrate even more where GRASS provides all the numerous analysis and topological features, a good vector engine and commandline for automation; and QGIS concentrates on the Desktop GIS and easy to use GUIs.

Andreas

Markus Metz wrote:

Todd Buchanan compared GRASS and ArcGIS in his master thesis (Geoscience / GIS):

Title: Thesis – Comparison of ArcGIS 9.0 and GRASS 6.0: Case Study and Implementation.
· Detailed costs and benefits of each GIS and included a comparison of acquisition, installation, implementation, and utilization.
· Involved Landsat image classification and analysis of urbanization of Eugene, OR.

You can get the thesis here:
http://www.toddbuchanan.net/thesis_ver.pdf

The thesis used GRASS 6.0 and GRASS became even better since then:-) I would not agree with TB's statement of technical support being virtually non-existent, because you get answers quickly in the mailing lists.

I hope that helps,

Markus Metz

Wolf Bergenheim wrote:

This question should go to the GRASS user mailinglist.

I'm not a full time GIS analyst, but so far I have not needed anything from ESRI that GRASS and/or other OSGeo projects can't do. Arc is perhaps a bit stronger on the cartography side of things, but with a bit of patience you can produce nice maps with GRASS.

--Wolf

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:41:17 -0600
From: Jennifer Horsman <jen@jencarta.com>
Reply-To: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
To: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
References: <2D44BABC-44BC-4572-9C5A-59DB8F6DC632@osgeo.org> <0D544207876CDA428F17DD7EA448C192BEAEFF@bailey.DOMAIN.KSNINC.PVT>

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

_______________________________________________
grass-user mailing list
grass-user@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-user

--

--
Andreas Neumann
Böschacherstrasse 6
CH-8624 Grüt (Gossau ZH)
Switzerland
Phone: ++41-44-2736668
Email: a.neumann@carto.net

Web: http://www.carto.net/neumann/
SVG Examples: http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/samples/
SVG.Open: http://www.svgopen.org/

6

Andreas Neumann wrote:

I would like to add that some of the drawbacks of GRASS can be
compensated by using GRASS together with QGIS. There are ongoing
efforts
(mainly by Marco Hugentobler) in QGIS currently to improve the layout
and printing tools. I think the integration of both programs looks
promising and I hope that in the future the two projects will
collaborate and integrate even more where GRASS provides all the
numerous analysis and topological features, a good vector engine and
commandline for automation; and QGIS concentrates on the Desktop GIS
and easy to use GUIs.

I forgot to mention these multi-project efforts:
  http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
  http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_map_symbol_set

Re. project integration,
  http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Python_Library

(the QGIS grass toolbox is a wonderful example of how open source
projects can cooperate via reused code and so go from start to full
featured contender in little time)

And for any one wanting some help with ps.map here are some examples:
  http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/Ps.map_scripts

Hamish

      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

7

On Apr 25, 2008, at 1:17 AM, Hamish wrote:

Wolf:

Arc is perhaps a bit stronger on the cartography side of things, but
with a bit of patience you can produce nice maps with GRASS.

John wrote:

Where GRASS fails relative to ESRI products is in cartographic map
output. Others may differ with my view, but creating high-quality map
outputs in GRASS is non-trivial.

Yes, you are right, it is non-trivial -- but is possible! :slight_smile: We had hoped
to fund a student to write a wxPython GUI frontend for ps.map as part of
this year's Google Summer of Code, but were only given 3 slots to work
with (and very grateful we are to have those 3). Competition for those
slots was very tight and we had to say no to some very nice proposals.
It's an important component that I hope is ready for GRASS 6.4. For
GRASS 7 we will be less constrained by the old code to improve the
PostScript, PNG, and Cairo drivers for a more integrated hardcopy output
approach.

http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_SoC_Ideas#Cartography
http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-based_GUI_for_GRASS#GUI_for_ps.map

I find that by sitting down with a hand calculator (1"=72pt) and keeping
the ps.map reference guide handy you can get publish-quality results.
Maybe that still takes longer than it should, and the jumping between %
and inches is a bit awkward, but the results make the trouble worth it
IMO. If you have many maps to produce from a single template or in an
automated way, then ps.map is very hard to beat.

I have started using Mapserver to create my cartographic maps.

some ideas here; additional hints are always welcome:
http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_and_MapServer

Generic Mapping Tools is another option, but one that I have found to
be more challenging than using a Mapserver mapfile.

ditto:
http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_and_GMT

GMT will be similar to ps.map in that it is based on scripts and text
file configurations. Perhaps it is just my exposure level, but personally
I find ps.map to be less cryptic. (shrug)

These are great points, and good links for reference. Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed response.

I was trying to use ps.map last fall for some production work, but the lack of transparency options for vector layers in my ps.map output was a show-stopper for me. I created some nice maps, but have found mapserver, with the shp2img command, to be more efficient for my needs. Getting a high-quality legend was also a tad difficult. (This is not to say that I have been without problems in MapServer, e.g., tiny legends in large, high-resolution maps.)

I agree that ps.map was much easier to get to a usable state than GMT. The scripting language was more intuitive for me as well. Similarly, mapserver mapfiles are easier for me to work with than GMT.

Cheers,
John

8

On Friday 25 April 2008, John C. Tull wrote:

On Apr 25, 2008, at 1:17 AM, Hamish wrote:
> Wolf:
>>> Arc is perhaps a bit stronger on the cartography side of things, but
>>> with a bit of patience you can produce nice maps with GRASS.
>
> John wrote:
>> Where GRASS fails relative to ESRI products is in cartographic map
>> output. Others may differ with my view, but creating high-quality map
>> outputs in GRASS is non-trivial.
>
> Yes, you are right, it is non-trivial -- but is possible! :slight_smile: We had
> hoped
> to fund a student to write a wxPython GUI frontend for ps.map as
> part of
> this year's Google Summer of Code, but were only given 3 slots to work
> with (and very grateful we are to have those 3). Competition for those
> slots was very tight and we had to say no to some very nice proposals.
> It's an important component that I hope is ready for GRASS 6.4. For
> GRASS 7 we will be less constrained by the old code to improve the
> PostScript, PNG, and Cairo drivers for a more integrated hardcopy
> output
> approach.
>
> http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_SoC_Ideas#Cartography
> http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-
> based_GUI_for_GRASS#GUI_for_ps.map
>
> I find that by sitting down with a hand calculator (1"=72pt) and
> keeping
> the ps.map reference guide handy you can get publish-quality results.
> Maybe that still takes longer than it should, and the jumping
> between %
> and inches is a bit awkward, but the results make the trouble worth it
> IMO. If you have many maps to produce from a single template or in an
> automated way, then ps.map is very hard to beat.
>
>> I have started using Mapserver to create my cartographic maps.
>
> some ideas here; additional hints are always welcome:
> http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_and_MapServer
>
>> Generic Mapping Tools is another option, but one that I have found to
>> be more challenging than using a Mapserver mapfile.
>
> ditto:
> http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_and_GMT
>
> GMT will be similar to ps.map in that it is based on scripts and text
> file configurations. Perhaps it is just my exposure level, but
> personally
> I find ps.map to be less cryptic. (shrug)

These are great points, and good links for reference. Thanks for
taking the time to provide such a detailed response.

I was trying to use ps.map last fall for some production work, but the
lack of transparency options for vector layers in my ps.map output was
a show-stopper for me. I created some nice maps, but have found
mapserver, with the shp2img command, to be more efficient for my
needs. Getting a high-quality legend was also a tad difficult. (This
is not to say that I have been without problems in MapServer, e.g.,
tiny legends in large, high-resolution maps.)

I agree that ps.map was much easier to get to a usable state than GMT.
The scripting language was more intuitive for me as well. Similarly,
mapserver mapfiles are easier for me to work with than GMT.

Cheers,
John

Mapserver showing up in this conversation reminded me of a hack I was working
on some time ago -- something like d.out.mapserver -- for figure creation. I
will have to look over my notes, and possible post them on the wiki. Perhaps
you can post yours as well?

Cheers,

Dylan

--
Dylan Beaudette
Soil Resource Laboratory
http://casoilresource.lawr.ucdavis.edu/
University of California at Davis
530.754.7341

9

On Apr 25, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Dylan Beaudette wrote:

Mapserver showing up in this conversation reminded me of a hack I was working
on some time ago -- something like d.out.mapserver -- for figure creation. I
will have to look over my notes, and possible post them on the wiki. Perhaps
you can post yours as well?

This would be a great feature. QGIS has a mapserver export plugin that I have been using to create a starter template for my projects, then I do a bunch of customization for shp2img output to png. Having something similar in GRASS would be very welcome. I was a little surprised to not find that when searching for such functionality last week. If you can carve out the time, I suspect it would be put to use by quite a few users.

Cheers,
John