[GRASS5] datum support in GRASS

Hi all,

i need some input on implementing datum support into GRASS. Please give
me some advice on the questions below.

1. A datum shifting function is now integrated into proj4, so that this
library could be used instead of my changes to the coorcnv library. But
there are difficulities with interfacing this function with GRASS, so
that i plan to check in my version first. Maybe i'll later integrate the
new proj library.

2. There are several different methods for the datum
shifting/transformation with differing accuracy.

Block Shift method: 10-25 m accuracy,
Molodensky Transformation: 10 - 5 m accuracy,
Bursa-Wolf Transformation/7-Parameter-Tr.: 5-1 m accuracy.

As processing power is no limitation today it is theoretically possible
to use always the best available method, but the problem is that the
molodensky and the bursa-wolf transformation use different parameters
and i don't know of a source for a complete list of the 7 parameters for
the bursa-wolf transformation.

So there are mainly two things that could be implemented:
- only use Molodensky transformation with a complete list of datums
(120) and an accuracy around 10 m (this is done with e. g. garmins gps
receivers);
_or_
- implement a system where with every location the method used is saved
and the appropretiate formula is applied, with accuracy from 10 m
(Molodensky) down to 1 m (Bursa-WOlf). Two datum lists, one for 3
parameter Molodensky, one for 7-parameter Bursa-wolf (this is done with
many commercial GIS packages).

I don't know which accuracy is needed with GRASS, as this depends on the
resolution and the sort of data to be processed. Could please tell me
someone if there are GRASS applications that use resolutions with
sub-meter or meter range and interface with programs that use datum
shifting?

3. I want to implement the lists for the datum shifting parameters in
parallel to the ellipsoid table. There will be an additional datum.table
(and a datum7.table?), the short name of the datum and the shifting
parameters are saved to the PROJ_INFO file of the PERMANENT mapset. New
functions will provide reading of these values. g.setproj will be
changed to support this.

4. The map datum defines an ellipsoid. On creation of the location the
user will be asked to provide a datum, there will be no need to provide
an ellipsoid. Is this ok or will this confuse users?

5. One should always bear in mind that the datum shifting provides only
approximated solutions and that the accuracy depends on the formula used
and on the spatially applicability of the parameters (you can calculate
regional shifting parameters that give accuracy in the 1 m range). This
is different from the projection/inverse projection, which can be
reversed and provides exact results.
One additional problem within 2D and 2.5D GIS is that the height
component of the datum transformation is always lost/discarded, so that
if you shift several times (e. g. from local datum to wgs84 and back)
errors will creep in. I don't know if this is a problem in praxi,
perhaps someone could comment on this.

Thank you very much for you patience,

cu,

Andreas

--
Andreas Lange, 65187 Wiesbaden, Germany, Tel. +49 611 807850
Andreas.Lange@Rhein-Main.de - A.C.Lange@GMX.net

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On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Andreas Lange wrote:

Could please tell me someone if there are GRASS applications that use
resolutions with sub-meter or meter range and interface with programs that
use datum shifting?

Andreas,

  In my areas of expertise (ecology, biology, hydrology) there is almost
never a need for accuracies greater than ~5 meters. Then, there are the
accuracies of source data to be considered. For example, here in the US,
topographic map data (paper or digital) have an accuracy of +/- 15 meters
(48 feet). My opinion is that transformation accuracies greater than these
are not needed. The only exception might be if someone had to do a series of
transformations to run, and the positional errors cascaded through the
calculations.

  In our work, we tend to transform data once. If it's not in the
projection/coordinate system we use, then we transform the data. I cannot
recall a project where we did multiple transformations or shifting of the
datum.

4. The map datum defines an ellipsoid. On creation of the location the
user will be asked to provide a datum, there will be no need to provide
an ellipsoid. Is this ok or will this confuse users?

  Asking the user for an elipsoid in addition to a datum will probably cause
confusion. So, requesting the datum is OK, but assume the appropriate
elipsoid.

One additional problem within 2D and 2.5D GIS is that the height component
of the datum transformation is always lost/discarded, so that if you shift
several times (e. g. from local datum to wgs84 and back) errors will creep
in. I don't know if this is a problem in praxi, perhaps someone could
comment on this.

  Again, our experience is to transform once, if needed. Our GPS receiver
collects positional data with horizontal accuracy up to +/- 30 centimeters
(corrected) and vertical accuracy of +/1 60-90 centimeters. It is for the
latter precision that I purchased this unit. We need to map mines and
quarries, and there is almost never sufficiently useful elevation data. I am
able to collect data using Lat/Lon, UTM or State Plane Coordinates, so
rarely do I need to transform/shift these.

  With purchased data (or other data of unknown provinance), the accuracy
may or may not be known. Again, we do not keep shifting the data so I can't
say that your approach would ever cause us problems.

Thanks,

Rich

Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President

                       Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
              Making environmentally-responsible mining happen. (SM)
                       --------------------------------
            2404 SW 22nd Street | Troutdale, OR 97060-1247 | U.S.A.
+ 1 503-667-4517 (voice) | + 1 503-667-8863 (fax) | rshepard@appl-ecosys.com

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Hi developers, hi Rich,

thank you very much for your answer.

I have a new question now:
If i only ask for a map datum, i must know which map datum the following
systems use:
# projection ellipsoid
ALSK clark66
GS48 clark66
GS50 clark66
LABRD international
NZMG international
SOMERC bessel
OBTRAN ??

For these projections the ellipsoid is hard-coded into g.setproj, which
i must change. I think that there are many fixed combinations of
projection and map datum. So if someone provides me with a table or a
resource on this, i can implement this into a new g.setproj.

cu,

Andreas

Rich Shepard wrote:

..
--
Andreas Lange, 65187 Wiesbaden, Germany, Tel. +49 611 807850
Andreas.Lange@Rhein-Main.de - A.C.Lange@GMX.net

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On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Andreas Lange wrote:

I have a new question now:
If i only ask for a map datum, i must know which map datum the following
systems use:
# projection ellipsoid
ALSK clark66
GS48 clark66
GS50 clark66
LABRD international
NZMG international
SOMERC bessel
OBTRAN ??

For these projections the ellipsoid is hard-coded into g.setproj, which
i must change. I think that there are many fixed combinations of
projection and map datum. So if someone provides me with a table or a
resource on this, i can implement this into a new g.setproj.

Andreas,

  Cliff Mugnier of the University of New Orleans probably has all of this
information. He responds to such questions posted on gps-l (and gis-l,
etc.). Let me see if I have his e-mail address ...

(He disappears for a couple of minutes)

  Yes, I do! --> Cliff Mugnier - University of New Orleans
<cmugnier@uno.edu>

  Rather than me being in the middle here, I suggest that you forward this
message directly to him with a request for help. Cliff also writes a monthly
column for the Amer. Soc. Photogram. & Remote Sensing journal (to which I no
longer subscribe). He's Dr. Datum.

Rich

Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President

                       Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
              Making environmentally-responsible mining happen. (SM)
                       --------------------------------
            2404 SW 22nd Street | Troutdale, OR 97060-1247 | U.S.A.
+ 1 503-667-4517 (voice) | + 1 503-667-8863 (fax) | rshepard@appl-ecosys.com

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Rich Shepard wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Andreas Lange wrote:

> Could please tell me someone if there are GRASS applications that use
> resolutions with sub-meter or meter range and interface with programs that
> use datum shifting?

Andreas,

  In my areas of expertise (ecology, biology, hydrology) there is almost
never a need for accuracies greater than ~5 meters. Then, there are the
accuracies of source data to be considered. For example, here in the US,

Hmmm... I'm working with agriculture involved people, and for
precision farming : they want a precision up to 10 cm or less.

They don't use yet Grass, but some (expensive) commercial GIS.
On the other hand, the only transformation needed is for converting
precision GPS coordinates into our (wonderfull) lambert conical
(and very specific : the formulas are not implemented in proj.4)
projection on our (french modified and also wonderfull :slight_smile: Clarke
1880 ellispoid.

For all other application, I agree with Rich...

--
Michel Wurtz ENGEES - CEREG
                1, quai Koch - BP 1039, F-67070 STRASBOURG cedex
                Tel: +33 03.88.24.82.45 Fax: +33 03.88.37.04.97

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On Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 10:26:25AM +0200, Michel Wurtz - ENGEES/CEREG wrote:

Rich Shepard wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Andreas Lange wrote:
>
> > Could please tell me someone if there are GRASS applications that use
> > resolutions with sub-meter or meter range and interface with programs that
> > use datum shifting?
>
> Andreas,
>
> In my areas of expertise (ecology, biology, hydrology) there is almost
> never a need for accuracies greater than ~5 meters. Then, there are the
> accuracies of source data to be considered. For example, here in the US,

Hmmm... I'm working with agriculture involved people, and for
precision farming : they want a precision up to 10 cm or less.

They don't use yet Grass, but some (expensive) commercial GIS.
On the other hand, the only transformation needed is for converting
precision GPS coordinates into our (wonderfull) lambert conical
(and very specific : the formulas are not implemented in proj.4)
projection on our (french modified and also wonderfull :slight_smile: Clarke
1880 ellispoid.

Sidenote: Michel, perhaps you contact Frank Warmerdam on this!
He might be willing to add missing formulas to PROJ4 as they currently
revise this software: As GRASS uses PROJ4, it will be a good idea.
www.remotesensing.org/proj/

Best wishes

Markus

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On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Michel Wurtz - ENGEES/CEREG wrote:

Hmmm... I'm working with agriculture involved people, and for precision
farming : they want a precision up to 10 cm or less.

  I don't want to go too far off topic, but I must respond to this. Over the
years I have seen demands for accuracies much greater than are really
needed. Governments (and regulators) are particularly guilty of this. I have
come to believe that this demand comes from ignorance of the real world and
what is required for the desired results.

  Even in precision agriculture apps, 10 cm is absurd. I would like the
opportunity to have one of these folks walk a field with me, taking soil
and/or plant samples at 10 cm intervals and show me that there are
significant chemical (or growth) differences at that spatial resolution.

  I went through a long negotiation with wetland regulators in Oregon and
Washington a number of years ago. They did not want to accept our 5-m
accuracy GPS delineation of wetland boundaries; they wanted surveyors to
locate with 2 cm accuracy the boundary flags we placed. Finally, I took them
to a wetland we delineated and asked them to place boundary flags, too. They
finally realized that the boundary is a transition zone, and flag placement
is a matter of judgement. So, they don't have to be mapped with such high
precision.

  Even in today's world of high-tech agriculture, I doubt that a piece of
farm machinery can affect the soils or crops at 10 cm resolution. And, even
if it could, that it would make any difference in crop yield and profit.

  Bah, humbug! :slight_smile:

Rich

Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President

                       Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
              Making environmentally-responsible mining happen. (SM)
                       --------------------------------
            2404 SW 22nd Street | Troutdale, OR 97060-1247 | U.S.A.
+ 1 503-667-4517 (voice) | + 1 503-667-8863 (fax) | rshepard@appl-ecosys.com

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On Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 10:26:25AM +0200, Michel Wurtz - ENGEES/CEREG wrote:

Hmmm... I'm working with agriculture involved people, and for
precision farming : they want a precision up to 10 cm or less.

I agree. I didn't say much before because I'm not a professional GIS,
merely a hacker finding uses for GRASS. I live in outback Australia
and the main uses for GRASS out here are at that sort of scale, when
tied to yield mapping of wheat fields and so forth.

All I've done so far has been fence mapping and emu laying sites. If we
needed to be able to find a site again and still see the eggs we'd need
to be within two metres; green eggs against green foliage.

--
James Cameron mailto:quozl@us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/

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